Dawntrail's dungeon design has been questionable.

[Anvaire]

i think the problem with dungeons is that they aren't really dungeons, they are a linear path with the formula <trash> <boss><trash><boss>

I don't like to compare ff to Wow overly much, because it always descends into which is better, but with dungeons, I like how Wow does them, they are enormous and often have multiple routes. Some have dungeon-centric quests, some have gathering points. But the central thing is you can choose. They are varied beyond just the aesthetic or art style.

FFXIV's are a long corridor and I think CBU3 Mistakes people moaning about dungeons like old toto rak, Aurum vale, as never do it again. Rather than were gonna moan, but they aren't that bad.

The second issue is that the job design isn't great and syncing is an abhorrent experience. No one wants to play earlier versions because the max level jobs are bare bones as it is.

[ddwarbird]

I have to be honest though, in my opinion Dawntrail has had the weakest dungeon and raid roster of any expansion so far. It may just be the increase in difficulty that puts me off them but a lot of them feel like an ADHD fever dream. Reaction times to mechanics have been severely reduced I feel this expansion which is a shame if you have mediocre muscle memory or can only focus on one thing at a time. I do not mind wiping to a boss on occasion and I've now finished all the Dawntrail dungeons on normal. I can honestly say that none of them have been particularly fun, with the exception of the last boss of Yuweyawata Field Station because that boss didn't feel cheap and was challenging in a fun way as it required interesting coordination and direction management.

I mean, we had Sigmascape, Crystal Tower etc (which people might think is pandering to nostalgia a lot) but it was an amazing experience. Battling Kefka (To a MASTERFUL modernisation of Dancing Mad) really doesn't compare to an anime girl dressed up like a bee, does it? One is clearly on another level to another.

[CidHeiral]

i think the problem with dungeons is that they aren't really dungeons, they are a linear path with the formula <trash> <boss><trash><boss>

Agreed. I think the fight designs have been generally good this expansion but the dungeon itself always being hallway/arena/hallway/repeat still makes the overall experience a bit dull. It would be nice if they could shake things up with the layouts. I remember WoW had one dungeon where you were in a room of prison cells and the bosses would be prisoners busting out of their cell. Stuff like that helps add variety and flavor.

The current state of job design doesn't help matters either. With interesting jobs even fighting trash can still feel engaging, but right now the jobs barely require you to be awake to perform their rotation.

[Taranok]

Agreed. I think the fight designs have been generally good this expansion but the dungeon itself always being hallway/arena/hallway/repeat still makes the overall experience a bit dull. It would be nice if they could shake things up with the layouts. I remember WoW had one dungeon where you were in a room of prison cells and the bosses would be prisoners busting out of their cell. Stuff like that helps add variety and flavor.

The current state of job design doesn't help matters either. With interesting jobs even fighting trash can still feel engaging, but right now the jobs barely require you to be awake to perform their rotation.

I disagree. The fight design is driving the game off a cliff. It's easy to understand this if you look at how class design has been happening. A fight comes out, classes have trouble doing the fight, classes change to fit the fight. New fight comes out, classes have trouble with the fight, classes change to fit the fight.

It's actually such a huge meme that you can exactly predict what will happen in future fights based on what buffs classes get. For example, esuna being instant is a direct response to chaotic's 4 second doom. Classes got massive aoes right before arenas became massive. When classes aren't buffed, like BLM not having enough movement in all of endwalker, fight design kept getting more movement and eventually BLM fell in line because no one was playing it or the fights got so stupid the devs were forced to deal with it.

There's a lot of problems, but the big one is the devs have this idea in their head that every job must do every mechanic equally. So every fight is just full of identical mechanics. "The boss is doing a donut, time to run in. Oh look, the donut is now a donut hole, time to run out. Oh look, we gave everyone a ton of movement. Time to make it more than a single wiggle can solve, more movement for all!"

This is also being combined with making fights progressively faster and faster to the point where the game's netcode can't keep up, so sucks if you're on even normal ping from east to west coast! But healing gameplay is just getting more frustrating while still being boring, and tanking gameplay is a binary pass-fail still, just with more oGCDs you need to press.

Frankly, the fight design shows the devs don't understand what the problem with the game's gameplay actually is.

[Valence]

I disagree. The fight design is driving the game off a cliff. It's easy to understand this if you look at how class design has been happening. A fight comes out, classes have trouble doing the fight, classes change to fit the fight. New fight comes out, classes have trouble with the fight, classes change to fit the fight.

It's actually such a huge meme that you can exactly predict what will happen in future fights based on what buffs classes get. For example, esuna being instant is a direct response to chaotic's 4 second doom. Classes got massive aoes right before arenas became massive. When classes aren't buffed, like BLM not having enough movement in all of endwalker, fight design kept getting more movement and eventually BLM fell in line because no one was playing it or the fights got so stupid the devs were forced to deal with it.

There's a lot of problems, but the big one is the devs have this idea in their head that every job must do every mechanic equally. So every fight is just full of identical mechanics. "The boss is doing a donut, time to run in. Oh look, the donut is now a donut hole, time to run out. Oh look, we gave everyone a ton of movement. Time to make it more than a single wiggle can solve, more movement for all!"

This is also being combined with making fights progressively faster and faster to the point where the game's netcode can't keep up, so sucks if you're on even normal ping from east to west coast! But healing gameplay is just getting more frustrating while still being boring, and tanking gameplay is a binary pass-fail still, just with more oGCDs you need to press.

Frankly, the fight design shows the devs don't understand what the problem with the game's gameplay actually is.

I agree with the assessment but I'm pretty sure the devs are perfectly aware of what they've been doing. Even for the BLM reworks I have so many friends that are happy with it (including raiders), and for the fight design it's no different. There is also people unhappy with it but they all have left the game by now. It's why I do feel that the devs are just dead set on a vision they do have, but it comes at the cost of a fracture in the community. All of what they've been doing so far has generated a lot of heated debates and bitterness everywhere I've looked, and it's not getting any better.

[Taranok]

I agree with the assessment but I'm pretty sure the devs are perfectly aware of what they've been doing. Even for the BLM reworks I have so many friends that are happy with it (including raiders), and for the fight design it's no different. There is also people unhappy with it but they all have left the game by now. It's why I do feel that the devs are just dead set on a vision they do have, but it comes at the cost of a fracture in the community. All of what they've been doing so far has generated a lot of heated debates and bitterness everywhere I've looked, and it's not getting any better.

Which is why it will be a critical mass thing. People will grumble and gnash teeth until, all at once, the population will drop off a cliff. This happened once before in HW when the devs shocked the community by making every class way too hard to play, designed gordias with god mode, overtuned the damage, broke the game because of server ticks, and combined it with a 1 month vacation for the devs.

I'm all in favor of giving the devs a break, they just really shouldn't let off the entire dev team on an expansion release where things can, and did, go horrifically wrong. Because HW almost literally killed FFXIV off. Again. The best design FFXIV has ever had came as a direct result of overreacting to HW breaking the game. Stormblood. And if people can see stormblood-styled class and fight design, I feel people would prefer that even over 7.2's fast gameplay, especially those, like me, who have netcode-related issues.