Suggestions to make DRK less miserable to play against in Frontline

[Ruby_Bloodydusk]

I really enjoy PVP as a whole but to this day DRK is just overtuned compared to everything else around it. It works well enough in CC but the same kit is just insane when you add the large-scale player count of Frontline.

1. My first suggestion would be probably the most simple to implement - reduce the entity limit pull. I think everyone can agree that a DRK vacuum in CC should reasonably be able to grab everyone on a 5-person team for the class to have its value. But maybe we keep that count in Frontline or make it just slightly more. 1 player being able to lock down so many is so much more powerful than what any other class in Frontline has access to, especially when you consider its oppressive combination with extremely lethal AOE ultimate like dragoons'

2. My second suggestion is what I believe in my heart of hearts to be the best solution - reducing the aoe. The fact that it grabs a 5 city block-sized radius just never fails to blow my mind. This in conjunction with the fact that the greater portion of the maps has necessary chokepoints smaller than this ability just makes it a no-brainer button press that wields entirely too much power.

3. Take away its dash. If we're going to keep the vacuum as it is then it's really not necessary for DRK to have access to something that can move this Jupiter level vacuum IMMEDIATELY to any enemy player spot.

4. Make the vacuum its ultimate. With it being a regular ability it's just up too often and so it's very easy for a party of DRKs to go in and abuse it to a degree where it's simply not fun in any way to play against.

I make these suggestions because I enjoy PVP in almost every other aspect and I think this is the most glaring spot where it needs some work. I think DRK is a kink which needs ironed out. I see players complain about it more than any other class so I know I'm not alone in the way I feel.

[Oizen]

Wouldn't the job do quite literally nothing at all if it was just running around spamming 123 until its limit break was up?

[CVXIV]

These changes would ruin dark knight and cause no one to play it
It seems like a way to overcorrect something

The main issue from what I've seen is that you are able to stack it so when you are up against multiple dark knights you are going to be pulled repeatedly, there's no resisting it You could use guard, but it will do little in the end

It also doesn't help that purify has no use against draw-in effects like it, or Warrior's chain grab

If it was reduced to 3 people, it wouldn't solve the underlying issue of being pulled in multiple times
The AoE itself doesn't seem that big either, so I believe it's mostly server tick, being hit by it even if on your end you're out of the attack which has happened to me several times
It'd also be pretty disappointing to have as a limit break for a job that is centered around expending HP as a resource for damage

[Jeeqbit]

I've still never seen this being an issue in Frontline and I did it every day for 2 months to get the new PvP mount.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

The only 'fix' I could think of is to delete Purify and reintroduce its better predecessor: Fetter Ward, albeit with adjustments.



Otherwise, if they actually nerf Salted Earth and move the draw-in effect to maybe their LB, I can't wait for them to turn that draw-in LB into something that you cannot escape no matter what for full 3-5s as a compensation lmao.

[Ardeth]

Personally, I think limiting how much you can get crowd controlled needs to be a factor.

White Mage's imp kills people. Monks stun limit break firebird combo kills people. You don't see forum posts saying nerf nerf nerf because it only affects the one player.

I think capping crowd control would be a better change.

What that number is would be a better discussion point than nerfing Dark Knights.

[Remember_The_Name]

DRK is not overtuned, it is just the Salted Earth ability was made for CC without second thought about its application in a much more large-scale content like Frontline. So here we are...

1) So far the most logical suggestion. Doesn't touch CC, makes it less impactful in Frontline. Everyone's happy. Except it will cause a chain reaction of people demanding AoE caps on other strong abilities. And you know what? I am all up for that. Post-6.1 FL is all about mindlessly flinging AoE nukes at the groups of enemies. Reducing impact of that gameplay would be a good start.

2) Another healthy idea to reduce radius of Salted Earth for FL only. But it ain't happening, because SE are adamant about PvP skills being 1:1 for all PvP modes. That is damn silly, but it is our reality right now.

3) Not a good idea. Leave the dash alone. The only thing that needs attention is Salted Earth.

4) Also not a good idea. DRK needs his invuln to perform his tank duties (drawing fire, being in the face of the enemy team).

The most miserable experience in Frontline is getting ping-ponged around by multiple DRK and WAR. Your character is locked in the "dragging" animation and can't do anything. With direct stuns and other crowd control, I at least have Purify to get some breathing room. But for some stupid reason, it doesn't work on displacement abilites (knockback, draw-in).

If Purify acted like a good chummy Fetter Ward, getting out of the "ping-ponging" wouldn't be an issue. But it would probably break Crystaline Conflict. So, instead, we could use a page from pre-6.1 FL and apply displacement immunity.

And, for the love of all that is good, make servers more responsible. It feels so AMAZING when you Guard and still take full damage for 1.5 seconds after the bubble appears. Or when you teleport away from potential draw-in only to be yoinked back all 50 feet.

[Loggos]

These changes would ruin dark knight and cause no one to play it
It seems like a way to overcorrect something

The main issue from what I've seen is that you are able to stack it so when you are up against multiple dark knights you are going to be pulled repeatedly, there's no resisting it You could use guard, but it will do little in the end

It also doesn't help that purify has no use against draw-in effects like it, or Warrior's chain grab

If it was reduced to 3 people, it wouldn't solve the underlying issue of being pulled in multiple times
The AoE itself doesn't seem that big either, so I believe it's mostly server tick, being hit by it even if on your end you're out of the attack which has happened to me several times
It'd also be pretty disappointing to have as a limit break for a job that is centered around expending HP as a resource for damage

Perhaps an alternative to OP's ideas could be adding an effect to salted earth that makes enemies, who have been pulled in, immune to it for a short period of time (what would be the best/most fairest time would have to be determined). Like this, salted earth's range and ability to pull in as many people as possible would remain unchanged but you couldn't abuse using multiple salted earths in a row.

In CC this would have no negative effect since there's only one dark knight on the team anyway and in FL it would ensure dark knight is still strong as an individual class while weakening their power as a "pack" to pull in players repeatedly.

But I also like OP's first option of limiting salted earth to 5 players.

[CVXIV]

Perhaps an alternative to OP's ideas could be adding an effect to salted earth that makes enemies, who have been pulled in, immune to it for a short period of time (what would be the best/most fairest time would have to be determined). Like this, salted earth's range and ability to pull in as many people as possible would remain unchanged but you couldn't abuse using multiple salted earths in a row.

In CC this would have no negative effect since there's only one dark knight on the team anyway and in FL it would ensure dark knight is still strong as an individual class while weakening their power as a "pack" to pull in players repeatedly.

But I also like OP's first option of limiting salted earth to 5 players.

Doesn't it already only pull 5 players? It's why I had mentioned it being reduced to 3, but if it's more than that then I apologize. I don't think it being 5 is much of an issue, because it would allow the entire enemy team in Crystaline Conflict to be pulled in, as was stated. Though it isn't like SE couldn't put in the work to adjust actions specifically to work differently in both game modes, given how different they are.

Having it set to 5, and allowing an 'immunity' of sorts to being pulled in after being hit by it would be good I think.

It doesn't need to be a long immunity, just something that would keep you from being repeatedly pulled in if you had been hit by the first salted earth. So probably a few seconds or so. However this would impact other jobs too unless it was specifically for salted earth.

That and an action you can use preemptively or reactively would alleviate a lot of the problem I feel like, because at least then you have other ways to counteract it and other draw-in effects.

[Loggos]

As far as I know there is no limit to the number of players salted earth can pull in which is why repeated pulling is so lethal in FL. You can eleminate big groups of enemies in just a few coordinated hits.
Having some kind of immunity would make it so that DRKs can still pull in an unlimited number of players but you couldn't chain salted earth of multiple dark knights at least. I'm not sure if it would completely solve the issue (I'm leaning towards an upper limit of 5 players myself) but I guess it's hard to balance the skill to ensure DRK is still a useful pick in FL without being unreasonably OP, esp. if matched against multiple DRKs.