Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Jojoya]

I think Emet-Selch would've absolutely shut down Living Memory.

I think Emet and the other Ascians were responsible for Living Memory. I think Preservation was their experiment group for finding a new way to recreate those they had lost. Emet had already told us they had no hesitation when it came to using our aether to restore their dead.

Once the system was perfected to their satisfaction, they would have removed the test subject memories of the Alexandrian people and replaced them with the memories of the Ancients that were sacrificed to Zodiark or lost in the Sundering. The memory crystals we found then passed onto Elidibus as he died (except for Azem's) may not have been the only ones in existence. The appearance of Living Memory would have changed to reflect Amaurot, Elpis and other places of the pre-Sundering world.

[Fiel_Tana]

Convincing as they are, Endless are perversions of real people.

Canonically, so are the sundered. Yet the story clearly shows that the sundered have a right to live.

Shadowbringers dealt with this exact theme and did it brilliantly, DT fails to even question it, that's the problem many people are having here and one of the reasons why DT is such a disappointment. According to Yoshi's quote, that was the intended theme of that area, to question what 'being alive' really means.

[jameseoakes]

Canonically, so are the sundered. Yet the story clearly shows that the sundered have a right to live.

Shadowbringers dealt with this exact theme and did it brilliantly, DT fails to even question it, that's the problem many people are having here and one of the reasons why DT is such a disappointment. According to Yoshi's quote, that was the intended theme of that area, to question what 'being alive' really means.

I think a lot of this gets more iky as this is all part of Alexandria culture, this is literally the afterlife of there culture for an expanstion that aggressivally obessives over how amazing and imporant culture is, when we find one that's problamtic we're very quick to demonise it and then burn it to ground

[Turtledeluxe]

Canonically, so are the sundered. Yet the story clearly shows that the sundered have a right to live.

Shadowbringers dealt with this exact theme and did it brilliantly, DT fails to even question it, that's the problem many people are having here and one of the reasons why DT is such a disappointment. According to Yoshi's quote, that was the intended theme of that area, to question what 'being alive' really means.

The sundered are all unique people distinct from the Ancients resulting from their effective death. SHB is pretty much nothing like what's going on here where we are dealing with exact perversions meant to function as the original identity.

[Dorito_Burrito]

I think a lot of this gets more iky as this is all part of Alexandria culture, this is literally the afterlife of there culture for an expanstion that aggressivally obessives over how amazing and imporant culture is, when we find one that's problamtic we're very quick to demonise it and then burn it to ground

It's problematic because the Endless are literally sustained by the life force of others. It has nothing to do with the Endless as individuals, because they really are completely innocent in their situation and were never allowed any agency over their state of existence after death, including Sphene, who may very well have been brought back as an Endless and altered by Preservation for some hitherto unknown sinister purpose.

[Fiel_Tana]

The sundered are all unique people distinct from the Ancients resulting from their effective death.

Yes, that is fairly true, however nowhere in the story does that define life nor whether any group deserves to continue or not. Whether or not you feel they are "perversions" is also your opinion, not canonical to DT. If they were so perverse, why bother to give them happy memories before destroying them? Why not say something about how the scions, WoL and Wuk felt about them? Why do none of the characters have any opinions or curiosity?

What I'm getting at is that the story doesn't deal with the theme that Yoshi set out, to quote him "That then makes us face the question, would we call that human? If someone is living in this digital world, are they really living?" You have the opinion that they are not. Others feel that they do fully qualify as alive. I feel that perhaps they are and in previous expansions that would have been examined and 100% should have been here. All those opinions are perfectly valid.

What I'm arguing is that based on the story so far in previous expansions and the characters canonical experiences and knowledge, there should be more than enough doubt that the scions and WoL should have questioned whether they qualified as alive or not, whether there was another way, or at the very least not been so blasé about destroying them all.

That fact that they don't leaves the area very uncomfortable for some players, along with leaving a (for the WoL and scions) a rather large moral issue left unquestioned. It also makes for a very unsatisfying story for many players.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

The major problem I have with that zone is that nobody in the MSQ questions "If someone is living in this digital world, are they really living?". Does Yoshi think it does? If so, has he not played DT? Had he even read the script? Talked to the writers at all during pre-production? Checked in during production? Where is that questioning in game??

The MSQ shows the "heroes" destroying them all without questioning the morality of it, looking for better/other alternatives or even feeling a tiny bit bad about it.

Was the MSQ written that way on purpose to make some players question it and start discussions? That seems like quite a reach, so pretty doubtful.

So what went wrong there?

It feels he's talking about a story that is pure headcannon, not what we actually received in the MSQ and that is honestly more than a bit worrying for the future of FFXIV.

Given the state DT launched in, I'd bet all the money in my bank account he hasn't played it. There is just no way if someone with power had played through the entirety of this we would have gotten what we got. So I agree he might be talking about why it was added while having no idea how it was handled in the story.

The sundered are all unique people distinct from the Ancients resulting from their effective death. SHB is pretty much nothing like what's going on here where we are dealing with exact perversions meant to function as the original identity.

Okay, Azem.

[jameseoakes]

It's problematic because the Endless are literally sustained by the life force of others. It has nothing to do with the Endless as individuals, because they really are completely innocent in their situation and were never allowed any agency over their state of existence after death, including Sphene, who may very well have been brought back as an Endless and altered by Preservation for some hitherto unknown sinister purpose.

I might be problatic but deleting them doesn't fix anything, they could have been left to run down there reserves of energy until maybe a better solution could be found but the game just jumps strait to removing them. As I said before it feels really strange we have really humanising interactions with them and then the game just goes now it's time to remove them, it just feels terrible. The life energy stuff mostly seems to be Sphenes arc it seems to have very baring on the Endless active in the zone (or at least the first part)

[Fiel_Tana]

I might be problatic but deleting them doesn't fix anything, they could have been left to run down there reserves of energy until maybe a better solution could be found but the game just jumps strait to removing them. As I said before it feels really strange we have really humanising interactions with them and then the game just goes now it's time to remove them, it just feels terrible. The life energy stuff mostly seems to be Sphenes arc it seems to have very baring on the Endless active in the zone (or at least the first part)

It really does feel terrible to not even have tried or questioned the situation at all, fully agree!

Why bother reuniting a couple to only seem to say 'hope you have the best 5 minutes of your lives before we destroy you'. 'Hey kids, you liked that play? Wait till you see the pretty lightshow as you vanish forever in a cloud of gold sparkles!' If they're not alive in any sense, there is no point to making their final moments better. If they are, then, well... it's not a great look for 'heroes' to have coldly killed them all without even thinking how to possibly save them.

And the fact that deleting them did nothing to Sphene, what was the point? Both from writing and player perspectives none of it means anything.

But then again, we're putting more thought and care into this story than the writers and/or producer/director did it seems.

[NanaWiloh]

It really does feel terrible to not even have tried or questioned the situation at all, fully agree!

Why bother reuniting a couple to only seem to say 'hope you have the best 5 minutes of your lives before we destroy you'. 'Hey kids, you liked that play? Wait till you see the pretty lightshow as you vanish forever in a cloud of gold sparkles!' If they're not alive in any sense, there is no point to making their final moments better. If they are, then, well... it's not a great look for 'heroes' to have coldly killed them all without even thinking how to possibly save them.

And the fact that deleting them did nothing to Sphene, what was the point? Both from writing and player perspectives none of it means anything.

But then again, we're putting more thought and care into this story than the writers and/or producer/director did it seems.

There was no chance to question or try. Sphene was going to commit genocide from the moment we met her. When finally did find out the plan, she just goes full throttle with it giving us no chance to reason with her. Sphene is %100 to blame for the memories of her people getting wiped out. She put us in that position and left no way out.