Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[CuteBucket]

It is rather fascinating that by stripping the people of Tural of any meaningful political history and conflict, it actually feels more racist to me than how the people of the rest of the game have been depicted. Flawed histories and leaders with stains on their records and political upheaval and turmoil in the recent past? That nuance is reserved for the people of Othard and Aldenard and Ilsabard, not Tural. One single (two-headed) guy solved all of their major problems 80 years ago, convinced two tribes to stop enslaving other people by just asking nicely, and then everything has been happy and idyllic for everyone except this one single town of Mamool Ja ever since, and we fixed all their problems in the story anyway so now they're fine and happy too. Contrast this with the history of any other nation in the game world.

There's this phenomena where a person or organization can become so averse to accusations of racism and cultural appropriation that they bend over backwards and go out of their way to never do anything that could possibly offend any group, but by doing so, it comes off as weird and infantalizing to everyone else. Like they're trying SO HARD not to be offensive that it actually wraps back around and becomes offensive again. And it's all the more jarring here, because FFXIV has never previously shied away from showing other cultures that are clearly inspired and influenced by real world cultures as places with rich histories and flawed people and leaders. But something happened in going to Fantasy Americas where all of a sudden we can't show any of the cultures here being mean to each other.

Because as we all know, historically before colonization, all of the nations of the Americas got along super well and were best friends and never fought with or conquered each other or made any empires! /s

[SwadTheFrog]

It is rather fascinating that by stripping the people of Tural of any meaningful political history and conflict, it actually feels more racist to me than how the people of the rest of the game have been depicted. Flawed histories and leaders with stains on their records and political upheaval and turmoil in the recent past? That nuance is reserved for the people of Othard and Aldenard and Ilsabard, not Tural. One single (two-headed) guy solved all of their major problems 80 years ago, convinced two tribes to stop enslaving other people by just asking nicely, and then everything has been happy and idyllic for everyone except this one single town of Mamool Ja ever since, and we fixed all their problems in the story anyway so now they're fine and happy too. Contrast this with the history of any other nation in the game world.

There's this phenomena where a person or organization can become so averse to accusations of racism and cultural appropriation that they bend over backwards and go out of their way to never do anything that could possibly offend any group, but by doing so, it comes off as weird and infantalizing to everyone else. Like they're trying SO HARD not to be offensive that it actually wraps back around and becomes offensive again. And it's all the more jarring here, because FFXIV has never previously shied away from showing other cultures that are clearly inspired and influenced by real world cultures as places with rich histories and flawed people and leaders. But something happened in going to Fantasy Americas where all of a sudden we can't show any of the cultures here being mean to each other.

Because as we all know, historically before colonization, all of the nations of the Americas got along super well and were best friends and never fought with or conquered each other or made any empires! /s

South American here, you're basically completely right. Seeing cultures inspired in part by certain *mesoamerican* empires and a few particular people being portrayed as lovey-dovey peace-loving hippies is uh.

Boy, it's special, I'll tell you that.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

You don't get it, Beast Tribes was an offensive name and had to be changed to be respectful towards ... Wait, who are Beast Tribes supposed to represent? It never even occurred to me that they were anything but fantasy races.

Good ol' Cultural Sensitivity Consultation: "If your product isn't racist, we'll make sure it is".

So the snake ladies in Indian clothes with Indian accents and an Indian god never came off as maybe being related to any real life people? Interesting.

The FF14 writers did this to themselves. They were the ones who decided to fashion their fantasy races after real life people.

South American here, you're basically completely right. Seeing cultures inspired in part by certain *mesoamerican* empires and a few particular people being portrayed as lovey-dovey peace-loving hippies is uh.

Boy, it's special, I'll tell you that.

I was like 8 hours in before I realized they weren't just lying. I thought they gave Wuk Lamat a baby version of history thinking she couldn't possibly handle the truth, but nope, national unity based on tacos and vibes.

[Jibs]

I was hoping we could target her with the LB at the end of that last trial she forced her way into, since she just stood there in front of the boss... She didnt belong in rhe 2nd half of the story at all. That should have been her brother, forgot his name, time to shine since that was more his thing with the technology. I hope they cut her interaction time down in post content.

[Vensaval]

You don't get it, Beast Tribes was an offensive name and had to be changed to be respectful towards ... Wait, who are Beast Tribes supposed to represent? It never even occurred to me that they were anything but fantasy races.

Good ol' Cultural Sensitivity Consultation: "If your product isn't racist, we'll make sure it is".

If none of the upcoming "Societies" end up being humanoid, this change to the Beast Tribe name will officially be moronic.

I'm lending them the benefit of the doubt... For now.

Yes, even after the deplorable story. Probably full copium at this point, if I'm being honest.

[LisseyCrowe]

So the snake ladies in Indian clothes with Indian accents and an Indian god never came off as maybe being related to any real life people? Interesting.

I get what you're trying to say, but not really, no.

It just felt like inspiration. I didn't get the impression it was a commentary of an existing culture. But once you start changing things to respect said culture, then I am more-or-less forced to start drawing comparisons.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

If none of the upcoming "Societies" end up being humanoid, this change to the Beast Tribe name will officially be moronic.

I'm lending them the benefit of the doubt... For now.

Yes, even after the deplorable story. Probably full copium at this point, if I'm being honest.

You do realize one of the tribes is just lalafells in masks, right? They dropped the beast awhile ago, they changed it from tribes to societies. And you do get that the reason why some people are considered beasts was so that the city states could oppress them, enslave them and steal their land based on them not being considered people in the same way the playable races are? But they we're all just sundered Ancients and the determination of who was a beast and who was a person was completely arbitrary and based on who had the power to make the definitions.

I get what you're trying to say, but not really, no.

It just felt like inspiration. I didn't get the impression it was a commentary of an existing culture. But once you start changing things to respect said culture, then I am more-or-less forced to start drawing comparisons.

Was what made you notice really the difference between respect and lack thereof, or poor writing? I mean had the Indian snake ladies been talking about curry every five minutes, I'm sure you would have caught on faster to what they did there.

[Vensaval]

Snip

You ever take a step back and think you're taking a video game just a tad too seriously?

In case you haven't, let me tell you...

You're taking this video game way too seriously.

[LisseyCrowe]

Was what made you notice really the difference between respect and lack thereof, or poor writing? I mean had the Indian snake ladies been talking about curry every five minutes, I'm sure you would have caught on faster to what they did there.

On one hand, not being written like a caricature does help, absolutely. But I might still not have noticed, the snake ladies aren't Indian people, they're Indian-themed. The writers are not writing them as some "Hey look, this is what people are like in India!" thing. But if a patch came out and said they were altering the dialogue to no longer exaggerate "s" sounds as a way to be more respectful, then I'd have to assume that what hasn't been changed is direct commentary of how Indian people are, and that even the thing that was changed, probably was as well.

[Raven2014]

So the snake ladies in Indian clothes with Indian accents and an Indian god never came off as maybe being related to any real life people? Interesting.

The FF14 writers did this to themselves. They were the ones who decided to fashion their fantasy races after real life people.

That's why the "message" is important.

Say if a company want to create a "oriental" faction with no specific replication, they probably can put together a smash up - generic visual style with pagoda structure, Cheosam, Chinese accent characters, and no one gonna be mad if it also include Korean or Japanese style in it. It's oriental, it's exotic, it's cool, that's all that matter. But if the intention is to replicate a specific country/faction ... than that's a different story. That's why people aren't very please when the spot Korean/Chinese structure in the new Assassin creed when it's supposed to replicate Japan.


Frankly, that's why company should really just shut up and stop trying to score social internet brownie point. Don't try to claim you're paying homemade to this or that. If you create a place that looks like South America, or India than well, it's just what it is, still just a fantasy place. They are critized not because of what they made, but more because of the claim they're trying to make.