As someone who loved it, why I think Dawntrail didn't work for everyone [Spoilers]

[DeadlyAlbatross]

Okay. I guess it's flimsy, but works.

Thank you.

[Cilia]

Emet-Selch is ABSOLUTELY as suffocating as you claim Wuk Lamat to be, the entire final zone is about him and his story to the absolute exclusion of all else; the entire initial pitch and appeal of Shadowbringers completely leaves to isntead focus entirely on his story. Even in Amh Araeng, the only zone he's not a part of once he turns up, uses a 'Meanwhile' to show what he's up to. The Tempest is, without a single exception, the biggest instance of a show-stopping story hijack not just in this game, but in the entire franchise; nothing else exists in that space but his story. And he literally did take credit for everything! He's the guy that established both Allag and Garlemald as Ascian plots, that he specifically built!

You just give him a pass because you like him. After all, you never complain about a meal when it's all food you like.

Yeah... no.

Emet-Selch is absent until Ran'jit bests you in Lakeland (i.e. you get the two initial forays into areas - Amh Araeng and Kholusia) and doesn't really step onto the stage properly until after Il Mheg. He hangs out in the background, occasionally dumping exposition and saving Y'shtola that one time, until you defeat Vauthry / Innocence at the climax of Kholusia's proper storyline - and at that point there's only The Tempest left to go until the finish. He is a (or rather the) central character in that one zone, but beyond that and his infodumps he's a background character.

Wuk Lamat is with you a lot, lot more and gets a lot more screentime. She's with you in the initial two forays and accompanies you (or rather, you accompany her) for the lion's share of the story. There are exactly two windows when Wuk Lamat is not in the spotlight: when she gets kidnapped (which serves to illustrate how she's so important to Koana her being in danger is the one thing that can break his stoicism) and your initial trip into Shaaloani with Erenville (which involves helping her nursemaid to set up moments for her in Heritage Found and Living Memory). Wuk Lamat gets all of the character focus and all of the attention outside of Living Memory, and even there she has an important (and at the very end show-stealing) role.

Emet-Selch hangs out in the background, occasionally delivering exposition until it's time for him to take center stage. Wuk Lamat starts center stage and, in the story's entire length, steps out of the spotlight for a few seconds (so to speak) before going back to center stage... and those brief absences were just to set up how important and special she is.

... and I say this as someone who doesn't particularly like Emet-Selch (I rolled my eyes when he showed back up on Elpis in Endwalker, because of course he would instead of letting us know more about, I dunno, Loghrif and Mitron or one of the Ascians we haven't met (yet)) and doesn't particularly dislike Wuk Lamat (she's not a bad character per sé, she just takes the protagonist role away from us after two expansions and has a lot more screentime than anyone else in the story, which feels like a huge step back from Shadowbringers and Endwalker utilizing their ensemble casts to excellent effect and the PC being the protagonist as you'd expect in an RPG).

It's why the Arcadion story feels better, in a way - the PC's "specialness" is relevant again despite there being other characters with their own stories, so the narrative doesn't focus wholly on one character. Our "specialness" is irrelevant in the Dawntrail MSQ, we don't act in our capacity as the Warrior of Light until the eleventh hour, and even then Wuk Lamat still upstages us. I don't know how much TTRPG experience you have, but it's akin to making a GMPC the protagonist instead of the player characters, and that's one of (if not the) biggest no-no in running a campaign.

[Vyrerus]

Emet-Selch is ABSOLUTELY as suffocating as you claim Wuk Lamat to be, the entire final zone is about him and his story to the absolute exclusion of all else; the entire initial pitch and appeal of Shadowbringers completely leaves to instead focus entirely on his story.

Not even close, dear compeer.

And that is to say... Emet-selch was featured heavily as a mysterious hook for the setup and premise of Shadowbringers. He's introduced at the tail end of Stormblood along with the concept of the Unsundered who even stand above the other Red Mask Ascians who are supposed to all be top dogs.

He then makes a surprise entrance in a scene for the audience, his back turned, muttering while observing our battle against Ran'Jit as the Scions escape off to Il Mheg. His first reveal to the Scions is upon the return to the Crystarium after the level 83 trial. 2/5ths of the way through the expansion. This scene sets up and directly foreshadows learning about the Ascians in detail, in fact it's more of a point blank instruction that this will come up as a big deal, as he has now been posed as our background villain who could pounce at any moment. Thus making it plain that the story will inevitably give itself over to him, whenever he does indeed strike.

He offers peace and cooperation, and proceeds to bookend our progress. He's there at the start of arcs, occasionally in the middle, and then at the end. Rak'tika in particular, beginning, middle, and end.

And he isn't just showing up to get more screen time like Wuk Lamat. He is showing up with massive lore exposition. He is also met with constant hostility from the Scions, who are willing to listen, but make it plain they'd like to kill him. Perfectly in character.

While in Dawntrail, the Scions do not behave as themselves around Wuk Lamat. They never even stoop to criticizing her or suggesting a different path for her. The equivalent of verbal head pats are given to her at every turn, at least every turn they're actually allowed to have dialogue in, and after a while you don't even feel like you're journeying alongside characters you've been around for 11 years.

Incredibly silly of you to assert that with all of the setup around him that Emet-selch hijacked the story. No, no, he was just put in the pilot's chair on purpose. There was never any doubt that he would be. It wasn't a matter of if, but a matter of when.

And it wasn't his story alone. It was his account of the story of his people. Of the first people to inhabit the world of the setting. It was just as much Hydaelyn's story and every other Ancient's. And by consequence of the narrative presented, it was also our story. As setup in the quest lead up to Amity. When Emet-selch steps out of the shadows in Kholusia to speak of Amaurot for the first time, and the possibility of us becoming like him after all Rejoinings are complete. Even if it's in the false promised villain sort of manner, this is more importance shown to the WoL than Wuk Lamat ever does, where any time we do wish to express our prior adventures and importance, it is down played or said to us, "That is beyond the scope of these affairs."

Or the other scriptwriter driven dismissal from Sphene, "Wow you sure know a lot, Bro. I don't know any of that stuff. Anyway, I'ma get back to talking with this panther chick who's lead her people for all of an afternoon now."

You wanna talk about a real show-stopping hijack, it was the incredulous ass pull of a kidnapping that happened to Wuk Lamat when she forgot something in The Pots, which was still within sight, and then walked back there, and we had to faithfully wait instead of escorting her, because surely nothing of consequence could befall her! -> Oh wait, no. It's time for her to get kidnapped and face zero consequences from it, ultimately. Yay, show stopping padding. (Of course, I assume you're using the rarely used negative version of showstopper, because a legit showstopper is when the audience is clapping so hard from liking the thing so much that the show has to pause because the actors can't hear themselves think over the din of praise they're getting)

We at least got the blank check promise that we'd kick Emet-selch's ass, and we got to write in, "Kill 0/100 cents" at the top of his cenotaph where we immediately cashed it. For Wuk Lamat we can't even get an, "I, the WoL, trained her" deposit.

To sit with your meal comparison, Emet-selch is like a long awaited dessert that you were thinking about all meal long, from a multiple course meal where everything tastes so magnificent, you're not entirely sure you know what your favorite thing was. Even the house salad was so much better than your typical fare, you still mention it to yourself when you remember the meal days later.

Wuk Lamat is like a topping you told them to hold/remove, but they put on your dish anyway, because the chef refused to make alterations to the meal. You've had this meal plenty and elsewhere, so you know you don't want any of this topping, but the meal arrives and there it is. And you're really hungry, cause you haven't eaten in a while, so you force the meal down. Your hunger is remedied but you are completely unsatisfied. Maybe one of the sides actually tasted better than the main dish by comparison because of this, as well. When the waiter brings the check, they ask how everything was, and you say, "Oh, it was alright but I specifically requested to not have that topping." And the waiter shrugs, says the chef doesn't make exceptions, and then chides you with, "Maybe you'll learn to like that topping in the future, because you really should."

[Moomba33]

I don't mind Wuk Lamat, but it's pretty undeniable she took up a majority of screentime in the expansion and way more than any FF XIV npc that's come before. Like I'd say HW Alphinaud is probably the closest comparison in terms of focus, and even then he shared the stage a lot with Estinein and Ysayle and HW felt like an ensemble cast overall.

The player spending an arc with Krile (on the scale of hanging with Erenville in Shaaloani) and doing little quests along the way with the scions (say on the scale of the one with Erenville and the aether detector) probably would have helped a lot with players feeling stifled by her.

Edit: I guess Lyse was around for most of Stormblood, but the player was still sent to hang out with other people like Gotsetsu and Yugiri pretty regularly iirc.

[Cilia]

I don't mind Wuk Lamat, but it's pretty undeniable she took up a majority of screentime in the expansion and way more than any FF XIV npc that's come before. Like I'd say HW Alphinaud is probably the closest comparison in terms of focus, and even then he shared the stage a lot with Estinein and Ysayle and HW felt like an ensemble cast overall.

The player spending an arc with Krile (on the scale of hanging with Erenville in Shaaloani) and doing little quests along the way with the scions (say on the scale of the one with Erenville and the aether detector) probably would have helped a lot with players feeling stifled by her.

Edit: I guess Lyse was around for most of Stormblood, but the player was still sent to hang out with other people like Gotsetsu and Yugiri pretty regularly iirc.

Heavensward Alphinaud is by my measure the closest as well, but he doesn't have quite as much screentime. He sits out the initial two excursions, remains in Ishgard for most of the interludes wrapping up the Ul'dahn political crisis, doesn't assist with the fight against either Ravana or Bismarck beyond the planning stage, lets you and Estinien have the raid on Nidhogg's Aery, stays with Matoya during your trip to the Great Gubal Library, and hangs back to buy time for you to make the final push across Azys Lla and into the Aetherochemical Research Facility and Singularity Reactor. Even if he does have as much screentime (I'm not so petty as to demand metrics), the fact that Estinien and Ysayle have their own character arcs alongside him means he doesn't monopolize character focus in the way Wuk Lamat does, and the PC has their own goals to accomplish in Ishgard that don't necessarily involve him (restoring the Blessing of Light, rooting out the Ascians' involvement with Thordan, and avenging his death after Haurchefant is killed).

Lyse is the central character in Stormblood but most of that is spent in the Far East, where she spends most of the time in the background. Alisae is given more focus in the Ruby Sea, Yugiri and Gosetsu take center stage for most of Yanxia, and Hien and the PC are focused on most in the Azim Steppe (with a moment for Gosetsu). It's actually one of Stormblood's weak points, since she's supposed to be growing into a capable leader but we don't see any of that - the "diversion" is laid out in Doma, and after the return trip Lyse suddenly is made leader of the Resistance despite displaying no capabilities as a leader or commander while we were out there... but I digress. Other characters have their own arcs, focus is put on characters besides the main protagonist, and the PC still has a narrative role (their growing rivalry with Zenos).

None of them come close to hogging the spotlight to the degree Wuk Lamat does... at least, not by my measure.

[Vyrerus]

It's actually one of Stormblood's weak points, since she's supposed to be growing into a capable leader but we don't see any of that - the "diversion" is laid out in Doma, and after the return trip Lyse suddenly is made leader of the Resistance despite displaying no capabilities as a leader or commander while we were out there... but I digress. Other characters have their own arcs, focus is put on characters besides the main protagonist, and the PC still has a narrative role (their growing rivalry with Zenos).

Decisions surrounding Lyse certainly were muddled and generally without much fruit. Her growth in Stormblood was subtle if you ask me, as it wasn't explicit she was going to lead The Resistance until it was foisted upon her by a dying man. Her issues at the front half of Stormblood are that she's encountering unexpected mental/morale resistance from the Ala Mhigans who are in the occupied territory. She has to come face to face that she was a lucky refugee that lead a privileged life, and that she doesn't know how to connect with the oppressed people who didn't get out.

She'd worked with the leadership of The Resistance off screen since Heavensward though, and what she learned in The Far East wasn't so much how to lead as it was how to accept responsibility and inspire other people.

So when Conrad lays dying, and he's saying he wants her to take up the mantle of Resistance Leader, of course she was going to accept, she knew the man well and he knew her father and she'd just been inspired by Hien. And what's powerful about it is that she accepts it and even has ideas about what to do next and how to inspire The Resistance.

What's really jarring, in my opinion, is that she takes the mantle but then because of Stormblood's issue with showing scale, she is basically never seen leading or marshalling forces. She kind of just goes directly with the WoL through the next few areas, and fights alongside some Resistance soldiers with her group in Ala Mhigo (dungeon).

The game was like, "Hey Lyse, you're the leader now." And then she has no one to lead except like M'naago and Soldiers #1 and #2.

Like as far as I remember she makes a speech or two, but I don't think more than one of them was ever specifically to The Resistance. Most her leadership stuff comes in 4.1+ when they start the move to sideline her.

[thegreatonemal]

Lyse simply inherited Conrad's liaison position. She didn't become leader of the Resistance but she was a symbolic figure due to her last name.

[Wyssahtyn]

Lyse simply inherited Conrad's liaison position. She didn't become leader of the Resistance but she was a symbolic figure due to her last name.

Heavens Weep MSQ

CONRAD

It's all right, Lyse. I've lived long enough. But listen... I want...I want you to lead the Resistance in my stead.

No...no, you won't. Everything we've built, everyone we've brought together...I know you'll show them the way...

You've got it in you, Lyse. Not because you're Curtis's daughter, or Yda's sister, but because...because you're you. Because you're you...

[thegreatonemal]

Heavens Weep MSQ

CONRAD

It's all right, Lyse. I've lived long enough. But listen... I want...I want you to lead the Resistance in my stead.

No...no, you won't. Everything we've built, everyone we've brought together...I know you'll show them the way...

You've got it in you, Lyse. Not because you're Curtis's daughter, or Yda's sister, but because...because you're you. Because you're you...

You seem to have forgotten Conrad's role. He's only commander of the Resistance cell in the Reach. His job during the war was as liaison between the other resistance factions and the alliance. Which is what she steps into until the end of 4.1 where she's given her actual leadership role of commander of forces in the Fringes.

[kaynide]

Alphinaud; Lyse

Alphinaud in HW, imho, was the way to do it. He's important to the story of HW, but he's also doing his own thing while you are doing yours for bits and pieces. His expertise in his area, and ours in our own is well used. Essentially allowing each member to "stay in their lane" with what they bring to the story.

Even Lyse kinda sorta had her own things going on in SB, even though we never really saw it. (Agreed weak)

For Wuk Lamat to have worked, they really should have allowed other characters to do what they do well. Alphinaud should have been able to put together what's going on at the Hanuhanu ritual; Erenville could have taught Wuk Lamat about animal handling a bit more with the Pelupelu arc; Less "smells good saddle" and more Erenville showing her how to approach/what food they like etc.



But, more-so, Wuk Lamat seems to "learn a lot of things" and "talk about learning a lot of things", but that learning is never really built upon or is largely forgotten.

She learns rituals might have more to them than face value. We never really see a ritual play out later in story where she can surmise "there's gotta be more to this...". It could have been something as dumb as "There's a tea-ceremony ritual most people in Solution 9 do, but this one boy hates tea.... turns out that tea negates the lightning sickness, and that's why they drank it originally."

She learns to overcome her fear with Alpaca. We never really have her face a major fear after that.

She convinces an artisan to live somewhere else; this could have been a moment for her to learn from Alphinaud about persuasion, then later USE that to talk to the red Yok Huy instead of Deus Ex Machina (with Alphinaud nodding in approval).

The only one arguably used is that food can be a bridge between different cultures and warm relations, but I even that was G'raha getting ice cream.

Hell, she seems to be amazed at this Zipline she's never seen before in her life, despite us using one in Sharlayan. Sure she might not remember the specific name, but they are the super obvious thing connecting zone bits, so at the very least she could put two and two together. Less "Oh I've never seen that before" and more "Hmm Zip...line..? Is..that.. like the thing from Sharlayan?"

TL;DR, Wuk Lamat should have utilized her companions more in story, or had the other members take stage from time to time.