The missing mood in the existential horror of the last zone of the game (spoilers)

[Sivante]

[continued]

I cannot, in any logical context, view Dawntrail as anything short of the heel-turn of the assistant-WoL we play and the artists formerly known as Scions. We are meant to view this as levity and leisure but it became a trial in how easily the past is forgotten. Regardless of intention, I will not be able to see an 8.0 without viewing it as the first step in our villain arc. Where we go, destruction follows; we are become the folk-murderer. It has been well-insinuated earlier in this thread that we have performed the exact same level of crime as Emet-Selch did and I very much agree the shades of the same decision are present in the choices we didn't even get to make. But we acted according to the demands made of us, not our experience or what the past expansions taught us.

Wuk Lamat was meant to be likable, and while I despised her, she has most certainly been corrupted now by the brutality of a young warrior who looked in the face of genocide she pushed for, only to be laughing days later.

The artists formerly known as Scions knew better, know better, and so should the WoL. But we got our tacos, and that will forever haunt my memory of them now. Even if what they did was absolutely necessary, even if redactions and corrections are released to dismiss them of responsibility, they are still the people that genocide you one day and laugh over tacos the next now. The sheer callous departure from their compassion marks them each as uniquely tainted.

We didn't even pursue an alternative to correct this situation, not even a little. In an expansion about acceptance without addressing the naunce or difficulty, or embracing one another in full despite differences - In a story about stopping at nothing to be kind to one another and find a new way, this expansion ended with a whimper. The messages of acceptance and stopping at nothing were, for 21 hours of cutscenes and nauseating repetition, jammed into us through the force-feeding tube named Wuk Lamat only for her to heel-turn on all those values.

The artists formerly known as Scions and the WoL have powered interdimensional portals, have explored and studied the mechanisms of floating cities, and with clever use of aether taken down the very gods. But when it came to trying to find a way to power a server they put their hands up and blithely announced with a chuckle that it was taco tuesday and there simply wasn't another way. TGIT, amirite?

I find it bizarre that anyone would dismiss what has happened in this story while holding on high the story of the past patches and releases. How easily have people forgotten the words of Louisoix?

"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence."



Welcome to the Age of Indolence. We have tacos.



TL-DR; We are the baddies. We do a little war crimes around here. I'll see you when the next expansion drops the 24 man raid on Limsa Lominsa to complete our villain arc.

[Turtledeluxe]

Aside from responders already covering that the story is intended to be uncomfortable, I would just note that the reason we did not find an alternative is that shutting down what are effectively, at best, avatars of dead people who rely on a problematic and sustainable energy source, seemed imperative to stop the AI driven Sphene. That's the rationale of the characters anyway.

As for being cruel or whatever. I don't think the game denies that it's very difficult to let the Endless go, whether they're a different instance of the person they knew or not.

Is it the writers who are moralising or players like you, who are screaming like a Karen when most people clearly understood the question the zone is asking? Yes, ultimately we do turn off the terminals for a contrived narrative reason that ultimately doesn't clearly pan out, yet I think most people didn't gleeful shut off Otis or Krile's parents. Are the characters wrong because they perceive it as disruptive to the cycle of life and death, because they value the autonomy of potential fuel sources, because they didn't have time to find alternatives? I think as usual it's the players moralising because you didn't get the story you wanted where the cast bent over backward to let the villain win.

It's important to remember characters, including the WoL, ultimately aren't the player and their choices are made in the context of what they are directly experiencing in the moment. They don't have the luxury of time and resources the player may have. And sometimes they have to operate based on the information other characters are giving them.

[Sivante]

I would just note that the reason we did not find an alternative is that shutting down what are effectively, at best, avatars of dead people who rely on a problematic and sustainable energy source, seemed imperative to stop the AI driven Sphene. That's the rationale of the characters anyway.

Seemed. Seemed. We've fought gods, and we can't take on Sphene without shutting down the AI Cores which still makes little sense that I am aware of. I'm aware it was said in the narrative, but I fail to understand the logic. If one shuts down alternate functions on a system doesn't that leave more processing power for the primary program? Seemed. Seemed. Seemed. We didn't ask, we took it for a given because it was an easy answer.

Is it the writers who are moralising or players like you, who are screaming like a Karen when most people clearly understood the question the zone is asking?

Last I checked the principle basis of much of the MSQ is moralization. If you are comfortable with the questions as they lie, I encourage you to enjoy the game and look past the ethical implications in full. But to me this story, like other MSQ Stories, is full of morals and lessons to be told. To imply a lack of moralization here is to imply the entire topic was touched in ignorance of implications, which I would argue is even worse. If attacking me personally alleviates your tension I am happy for you, but I see no fruitful result of the exchange in defense of the narrative hole.

[Sivante]

Are the characters wrong because they perceive it as disruptive to the cycle of life and death, because they value the autonomy of potential fuel sources, because they didn't have time to find alternatives? I think as usual it's the players moralising because you didn't get the story you wanted where the cast bent over backward to let the villain win.

Yes. Yes, that would be wrong. That would be a learning opportunity which was not learned from with dire consequences. As history has taught us "I was just doing my job" is not a valid argument in the face of such ethical scales; I do not believe "I didn't have time" would be any more suitably a dismissal of responsibility for wiping out a people. I'm uncertain why you think I wanted the Villain to win, when my entire argument is that I believe the villain did win; us. There-in lies my problem with the story. But I welcome you to further expound upon what I wanted to see, it could be useful for future self-reflection.

It's important to remember characters, including the WoL, ultimately aren't the player and their choices are made in the context of what they are directly experiencing in the moment. They don't have the luxury of time and resources the player may have. And sometimes they have to operate based on the information other characters are giving them.

What you are referring to here in the second portion, I believe, is called the unreliable narrator trope. I have no objection to that if the story circles back to confirm it. That being said I think genocide is a bit harder to dismiss 'because I was given the wrong information.' I agree the WoL does not have our time and adrenaline responses as well as high-tension calls are a thing you are absolutely correct. However, we're not talking about normal people. This isn't Joe from the Seven-Eleven making a snap decision on whether or not or take down the insane robot lady; this is a group of people with experience with situations like this. I have higher expectations of the WoL. If the WoL makes a poor ethical decision I'm all for that, that's good writing, but it has to be addressed to the closure of the story. Making an ethically abominable decision and answering that by eating tacos and laughing would be callous and tone-deaf, don't you think?



My issue isn't with the fact that characters did bad things, not entirely. I take issue instead with the fact that the characters did (potentially) very, very bad things, and the consequences of that ended at the condiment aisle. Again, I repeat: Indolence.

[Turtledeluxe]

Seemed. Seemed. We've fought gods, and we can't take on Sphene without shutting down the AI Cores which still makes little sense that I am aware of. I'm aware it was said in the narrative, but I fail to understand the logic. If one shuts down alternate functions on a system doesn't that leave more processing power for the primary program? Seemed. Seemed. Seemed. We didn't ask, we took it for a given because it was an easy answer.

It's not taking it as a given. Sphene told us many many times that it was her direct motivation. It's not a reach at all directly attempt to demotivate her. Cachiua didn't just come up with the idea out of nowhere.

Last I checked the principle basis of much of the MSQ is moralization. If you are comfortable with the questions as they lie, I encourage you to enjoy the game and look past the ethical implications in full. But to me this story, like other MSQ Stories, is full of morals and lessons to be told. To imply a lack of moralization here is to imply the entire topic was touched in ignorance of implications, which I would argue is even worse. If attacking me personally alleviates your tension I am happy for you, but I see no fruitful result of the exchange in defense of the narrative hole.

You can point out a narrative hole exists without implying people don't understand the story by capitalizing and bolding things with misleading or incomplete information. I don't think the average player is so dumb that they don't realize the difficult nature of the ending zone. It's hard to let go of the people you love, but sacrificing entire worlds isn't the answer. It isn't even sustainable. There might be moralizing in DT, this isn't the best example. The cast express plenty of hesitation and even sadness.

Yes. Yes, that would be wrong. That would be a learning opportunity which was not learned from with dire consequences. As history has taught us "I was just doing my job" is not a valid argument in the face of such ethical scales; I do not believe "I didn't have time" would be any more suitably a dismissal of responsibility for wiping out a people. I'm uncertain why you think I wanted the Villain to win, when my entire argument is that I believe the villain did win; us. There-in lies my problem with the story. But I welcome you to further expound upon what I wanted to see, it could be useful for future self-reflection.

What is the point of having any stakes or conflict then? If we can solve every problem and defeat every villain just because of prior experiences and knowledge, we should be able to entertain every delusional system of every foreign civilization from any time period? In a reasonable amount of time? And that failing to occur each and every time to your satisfaction thus makes them villains...? Ok...

you are referring to here in the second portion, I believe, is called the unreliable narrator trope. I have no objection to that if the story circles back to confirm it. That being said I think genocide is a bit harder to dismiss 'because I was given the wrong information.' I agree the WoL does not have our time and adrenaline responses as well as high-tension calls are a thing you are absolutely correct. However, we're not talking about normal people. This isn't Joe from the Seven-Eleven making a snap decision on whether or not or take down the insane robot lady; this is a group of people with experience with situations like this. I have higher expectations of the WoL. If the WoL makes a poor ethical decision I'm all for that, that's good writing, but it has to be addressed to the closure of the story. Making an ethically abominable decision and answering that by eating tacos and laughing would be callous and tone-deaf, don't you think?

You are making these definitive statements based on assumptions. Because G'raha traversed time and space he should be able to find a new power source for the Endless? Assumption...to suggest there when was an alternative is in itself an assumption. Is it an ethical problem? Their motivation was stopping future mass murder (not genocide) by turning off the meso terminals (which had the effect of erasing, not genocide). But their motivation isn't valid because they've been through worse according to you and they just could have figured it out. That's what you're suggesting right?

That said, one thing we agree upon is that the writers routinely dive into very serious topics and then jump to tacos. But that's not a criminal or ethical offense. It's just disorienting and poor pacing.

[Sivante]

It's not taking it as a given. Sphene told us many many times that it was her direct motivation. It's not a reach at all directly attempt to demotivate her. Cachiua didn't just come up with the idea out of nowhere.

If you are implying we wiped out her people to demotivate her, you're implying Sphene is capable of being motivated rather than just being a program. If she's capable of being motivated, or emotionally damaged, she's more than just a program. To imply as well that Cah didn't come up with it out of nowhere but thought and spent time pondering and considering options only to pick this one, you're implying as well she is more than just a program. This leaves us with two options:

A) We followed the advice of a 'more than a program' to emotionally damage and distract a 'more than a program' leader, by wiping out her 'more than a program' people.
B) We followed the advice of a program to damage a program by erasing programs.

A isn't ethical, and B isn't sensible. There may be a nuanced middle-ground here, but if there is Dawntrail didn't highlight it well enough that a direct clarification can be drawn from the writing.

You can point out a narrative hole exists without implying […].

There is an oration tactic called a 'snuck premise.' This is when you attempt, intentionally or not, to subvert a presented point by bypassing it with language. "Sacrificing entire worlds isn't the answer" is in this case, what is called a snuck premise. No one here is arguing for sacrificing entire worlds; presenting that point would be presenting someone with misleading or incomplete information. You don't need to imply someone is dismissing your understanding by capitalizing and emboldening your presumptions of a stories meaning.

Two people are permitted to read a story and walk away with different understandings of it. A second opinion of what a story meant is not a personal attack. I will repeat what I said before: If your walk away does not share the apprehensions of others I am happy for you to enjoy Dawntrail. I encourage you to do so and to pursue your interests.

Yes, they tell us it is unsustainable: No one delves further into it. Why is it unsustainable? We have hopped dimensions, fought gods, and you're telling me we can't find a way to keep a server running? Was it a problem particular to that shard? No one asked, no one pursued. That is by definition, Indolence.

Yes, the cast expresses hesitation. Then they do it anyway, without further investigation. If X does a terrible, terrible thing, being sad about it isn't how you close that story out. Bob shot Jim but feels bad about it so let's play jaunty guitar music and have a feel-good montage for Bob, then run credits?

[Sivante]

What is the point of having any stakes or conflict then? If we can solve every problem and defeat every villain just because of prior experiences and knowledge, we should be able to entertain every delusional system of every foreign civilization from any time period? In a reasonable amount of time? And that failing to occur each and every time to your satisfaction thus makes them villains...? Ok...

… what? My brother in Hydaelyn, what? I… expect the story to act in consistency to itself, yes? Question mark? I don’t understand what you are implying here? Are you still assuming, after me having corrected you three times now, that I wanted Sphene to win? I don’t? I didn’t? I never did? That’s not the issue? I… what?

You are making these definitive statements based on assumptions. Because G'raha traversed time and space he should be able to find a new power source for the Endless? Assumption...to suggest there when was an alternative is in itself an assumption. Is it an ethical problem? Their motivation was stopping future mass murder (not genocide) by turning off the meso terminals (which had the effect of erasing, not genocide). But their motivation isn't valid because they've been through worse according to you and they just could have figured it out. That's what you're suggesting right?

That said, one thing we agree upon is that the writers routinely dive into very serious topics and then jump to tacos. But that's not a criminal or ethical offense. It's just disorienting and poor pacing.

I’m unsure which definitive statement you’re referring to, but go off. We do agree on the tacos.

As so far as the meat of that argument: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I’m not saying G’raha knows a solution, because it wasn’t even touched. I’m not saying Y’shtola could find one, because it wasn’t even touched. That is the issue. It wasn’t touched.

Generally speaking when one is considering a genocide I would like to think the gentleman’s approach might be to verify the necessity of the action to some degree. You’re right in that we have no concrete reason to believe there is another way, but we do have the implications and historical context to suggest that the artists formerly known as Scions and the WoL excel at finding another way when things get rough. That’s… kind of the entire plot of FFXIV.

If someone walks up to you and says ‘There’s a bad man in that closet!’ your first response isn’t emptying the clip into the closet and shrugging because ‘I guess we’ll never know if he was bad.’ Trust, but verify, is an axiom for a reason. The second half of Dawntrail was all trust, no verify, when we had a team of subject matter experts on hand.

[Turtledeluxe]

If you are implying we wiped out her people to demotivate her, you're implying Sphene is capable of being motivated rather than just being a program. If she's capable of being motivated, or emotionally damaged, she's more than just a program. To imply as well that Cah didn't come up with it out of nowhere but thought and spent time pondering and considering options only to pick this one, you're implying as well she is more than just a program. This leaves us with two options:

Sphene is ultimately an instance, like all Endless, so she contains the necessary memories to act as a direct copy of the original. Sphene just happens to be an instance with way higher authority that the rest, so maybe it's a mistake to say she is simply AI but rather that she has imperatives in her memory that make her act like an AI and she has subroutines that appear to be AI like in nature. In any case, if the original Sphene could be demotivated (and I assume she could if she was a human being), then her copy can be. This version of Sphene, after all, is choosing "bloodshed" because she has reasoned that her previous experience of "peace" hasn't worked to protect her people. I don't think it's so simple as to say "she is only doing what she's doing because she's an AI", which is why I didn't say that.

It's the same for Cahciua. She is just data, but highly novel and convincing data. These aren't "just programs" like we know today, equivalent to Notepad. I'm not sure why you are talking about them that way. They're instances of the original person but data like in form and nature. They glitch, shapeshift, live forever (with a battery anyway), and get erased. There's another thread discussing the implications of what happens to the experience accrued while these instances are active i.e.-- do these new memories return to the original soul in the Aetherial sea or not? This is something that the characters seem to be presuming, but the writers forgot to address and we just don't know. If all those memories get lost it would be unfortunate, but it isn't really equivalent to destroying the actual character. I don't think the writers are going to end up writing it that way if they address it at all.

There is an oration tactic called a 'snuck premise.' This is when you attempt, intentionally or not, to subvert a presented point by bypassing it with language. "Sacrificing entire worlds isn't the answer" is in this case, what is called a snuck premise. No one here is arguing for sacrificing entire worlds; presenting that point would be presenting someone with misleading or incomplete information. You don't need to imply someone is dismissing your understanding by capitalizing and emboldening your presumptions of a stories meaning.

It's more a strawman but anyway, "No one here is arguing for sacrificing entire worlds"-- false. Maybe no one in the forum is directly, but Sphene certainly was and that's certainly how the technology currently functions. I mean an argument can be made that allowing Sphene enough time to fuse reflections and plunder more souls is equivalent to sacrificing entire worlds. I don't think your OP really acknowledges this. It's just a wish list for the Scions absent any of the consequences or downsides presented in the story. It's not a personal attack, I never said that, but it comes across as disingenuous and thus just a complaint about the story we were told.

Yes, they tell us it is unsustainable: No one delves further into it. Why is it unsustainable? We have hopped dimensions, fought gods, and you're telling me we can't find a way to keep a server running? Was it a problem particular to that shard? No one asked, no one pursued. That is by definition, Indolence.

The current method is stated to be unsustainable because she will eventually run out of souls. That's just what logic dictates-- that she will reflection hop until no one is left.

Yes, the cast expresses hesitation. Then they do it anyway, without further investigation. If X does a terrible, terrible thing, being sad about it isn't how you close that story out. Bob shot Jim but feels bad about it so let's play jaunty guitar music and have a feel-good montage for Bob, then run credits?

Sphene has already begun the process of dimensional fusion, which appears to be unstoppable in nature. They aren't able to turn off the Meso Terminal from the outside. Once again, I don't think your ideas are nonsensical, I just think they fall under "I don't like the story that was told here", and not necessarily for a moralistic reason. It would be nice if the Scions had infinite time and resources to solve the Endless problem, but the game does not present it that way. Cachiua seems to have an idea of how long it takes and periodically checks the terminal while we do stupid side quests. Yes, it's stupid pacing. Yes, it's harsh that you're erasing memories. But the writers have ways to ensure those memories aren't ultimately lost, and the original person certainly still exists (in soul form). As far as the dumb pacing, the whole game has pacing. I personally wish we would have gotten to LM sooner and done questing there sooner and then faced the erasure at the end. So I dislike the story too, but moreso because it's so ineffective.

I’m unsure which definitive statement you’re referring to, but go off. We do agree on the tacos.

As so far as the meat of that argument: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I’m not saying G’raha knows a solution, because it wasn’t even touched. I’m not saying Y’shtola could find one, because it wasn’t even touched. That is the issue. It wasn’t touched.

Generally speaking when one is considering a genocide I would like to think the gentleman’s approach might be to verify the necessity of the action to some degree. You’re right in that we have no concrete reason to believe there is another way, but we do have the implications and historical context to suggest that the artists formerly known as Scions and the WoL excel at finding another way when things get rough. That’s… kind of the entire plot of FFXIV.

If someone walks up to you and says ‘There’s a bad man in that closet!’ your first response isn’t emptying the clip into the closet and shrugging because ‘I guess we’ll never know if he was bad.’ Trust, but verify, is an axiom for a reason. The second half of Dawntrail was all trust, no verify, when we had a team of subject matter experts on hand.

We're going in circles really because this was a situations of time vs consequences. We could spend time solving a new and complex problem but it would risk an automated process of dimension fusion resulting in plundering.

I also think, tbh, expecting consistency is unrealistic given every expansion changes writers on a large scale. Not that it excuses everything, but perfect consistency all the time seems unreasonable.

[Sivante]

Sphene is ultimately an instance, like all Endless [...]

Agreed and agreed. There's some argument on what they are ultimately, as another post pointed out we could compare this to a human brain in a robot body and thus 'alive', but I'm going to set that aside. The reason I emphasize 'program' in this case is because the argument of whether they are 'alive' or not breaks down largely to them being a 'program' or a 'person.' We can call them 'endless' if it's more appropriate, and indeed narratively it likely is. Are these logical, thinking, feeling, comprehending people or are they just soulless duplicates? The inference I gathered is to treat them as soulless duplicates per the story, and thus it is 'sad' but not unethical. However, if we encounter 'endless' who love, aspire, think, and can be emotionally extorted (which is indeed what Cah's plan does to Sphene as I personally understand it) then that further blurs the lines of how ethical it was. If an AI (just for example) can feel, truly feel to the point of convincing itself it feels, are its feelings less important than yours or mine? This was an intended thought, or those side-quests wouldn’t be there. The writer wanted us to see this moral issue. That or this was the sloppiest of quest writing.

The reason we are dismissing the endless as being less alive directly contradicts why we would listen to them. If the reason for validating wiping them out is valid as stated, then listening to them and wiping them out makes no sense as a duplicate's argument wouldn't really matter. But if the duplicates argument matters because it is sentient and capable of feeling, then we shouldn't wipe them all out. Did no one bring a jump drive?

This entire conundrum could be alleviated with a good reason to wipe them out, rather than just going and kicking in the teeth of Ascian 2.0 electric boogaloo. But they didn't give us a reason. Instead of 'save the people by kicking in her teeth' it became 'perform a spot of ye old ultra genocide then have a go at her teeth.'

It's more a strawman but anyway, "No one here is arguing for sacrificing entire worlds"-- false. Maybe no one in the forum is directly, but Sphene certainly was and that's certainly how the technology currently functions.[…]

I seem to have miscommunicated here: I meant no one in this thread. Sphene had to be stopped. My problem is why commit a genocide on the route, just because Cah said it would help? Why not investigate a way to shut Sphene down, and maintain the servers until a better solution could be had? It seems terribly hypocritical to the message of Dawntrail’s plot and indeed all of the WoL’s story to date. By the most generous of estimates the souls here have fueled this for over 100,000 years factoring for time dilation, so why rush now?

[Sivante]

The current method is stated to be unsustainable because she will eventually run out of souls. That's just what logic dictates-- that she will reflection hop until no one is left. […]

I am beginning to see the source of our conflict here: Yes that is what Sphene plans. My issue isn’t with stopping Sphene. My issue is core to those servers, the terminals. Just because Sphene thought feeding souls to them was the only way doesn’t mean she was correct: but we didn’t investigate another route. We had experts on hand for this sort of thing but didn’t even try. Sphene became but her people were not, we just… decided it was convenient to wipe them out first and equivocated a why.

Sphene has already begun the process of dimensional fusion, […]

I do think more time and better pacing as you suggest would have given the writers time to correct or route the story in a fashion that brought more nuance to the story as well.

However, that’s not what we have. We agree, but that’s not what the story is.

You cannot relegate the ‘endless’ to the ‘slightly more okay to genocide’ bucket without also relegating Alpha, all of Ultima Thule, and similar expressions in the game to that same bucket: but the story strongly implies no one would be okay with that. Indeed, I doubt the players would be.

If this story was intended to be a ‘it’s sad but must be done’ I’m okay with that, but there are ways to express that story. Those ways do not include side-quests of a man who has been looking forward to marrying the love of his life before you wipe him out, humanizing what you have plainly stated is inhuman, and following the sadness and hesitance of it all with a jaunty guitar feel-good scene while people eat tacos. I just killed a man about to marry the love of his life, but there’s a taco.

I am deeply uncomfortable in a way I do not think Square Enix intended, playing a WoL who committed a genocide (again, my perspective) and then had a happy-go-lucky montage of tacos and a happy ending. There is a word for that behavior: psychopathy. I’d be delighted to play a WoL that is canonically a psychopath, but again I doubt this is intended.

We do not agree that it is unrealistic to expect consistency: there are methods of doing this even across multiple writers, but I understand the spirit of your statement enough to be happy to disagree and not argue it further. Where you’re coming from isn’t invalid: consistency is hard in stories this long. I just had higher expectations I suppose, and this will teach me to adjust them.