Dawntrail vs. Stormblood? [possible spoilers]

[jadan2000]

I was never a big fan of Stormblood msq.. I like DT much better

[Zackneifein]

For me, it also never made sense why Lyse became the prominent leader of Ala Mhigo versus Raubhan

Let's be honest, she isn't.
Every Mhigans admire the Bull. She is the member of a "council" governing Ala Mhigo has the Leader of the Resistance. But the Resistance is no longer more than a part of the regular Army, that at the end Rhauban lead.

She is one of the many leaders of Ala Mhigo but not the most prominent at all, that's also why she is sent to Garlemald.

And at the end, yes, if Lyse had as much spotlight as Wuk Lamat, she would be 100x worse. Wuk Lamat isn't as bad as many say, but her omnipresence made her unbearable for many. Even me, that didn't disliked her at first, on the contrary, just wished that she received the "Lyse treatment" mid-MSQ, making her disappear from the plot.

[ReynTime]

Stormblood was a lot more grounded. And characters were still written like human beings, acting in a believable manner. And before some brain rotted fanboy points out "hurr durr believable in a world with airships and moogles?" it's really simple. Good writing means the characters will act in a way that would be realistic for someone who grew in the kind of environment they're in, including fantastical ones. Which Dawntrail certainly doesn't do.

For that reason alone Stormblood is vastly better than Dawntrail and its shitty Disney kid show scenario.

[Atreiden]

Stormblood was so much better than DT and that's despite Stormblood being the weakest expansion up until now. While there were things that bothered me in stormbloods msq I never got annoyed enough to consider stopping playing. DT on the other hand I struggle to even advance the msq, it's so insanely boring and hampered down by the worst written npc ever. Wuk Lamat is terrible, but even without her the entire expansion's plot is nonsensical and have the weirdest tonal shift from zone to zone. It's just a mess.

[AurisNix]

It depends if its only for MSQ ppl likes to depict SB as a bad expansion but if we talk about content is the best expansion ever delivered, I feel like DT will follow the same path, MSQ is just an easy skip but the content so far was the best we ever got.

In MSQ terms we can't judge but IMO SB patches were by far the best ones compared with other expansions, the Tsuyu arc was very good and very engaging, then the build up to ShB when all the scions just randomly falling into a coma and the WoL hearing this ominous voice, we also have the Gauis and Alphinaud arc. Was by far the best build up ever. Call me crazy if you want but I feel SB MSQ Patches are on pair with ShB MSQ or HW MSQ I would put them above EW MSQ.

[Plumerian_Ariadust]

Stormblood over Dawntrail for MSQ.
I was of the opinion that StB was all over the place but DT clearly beats that.
Lyse isn't as omnipresent as Wuk. For example Wuk hogs the spotlight so much that she probably has an area debuff that lowers everyone's IQ like how does that bit happen after earthenshire on a straight unobstructed road? Also why not just beat up the thief who stole her mcguffin?
Hell she is even present when you are done with your "mentoring". Also why not just beat up the thief to get Namikka's thing back without issue? We've beaten up thieves and bandits for less.
And this might get controversial, WL's intrusion and shouting in small caps in the final trial ruined the whole thing for me.

[Vyrerus]

4.0 > 7.0 and it's not even close.

Stormblood followed established characters as well as established side characters, and in this way it connected seamlessly with what came before it. Dawntrail's whole deal is that it's gotta be so damned new that everything has to be new, and so instead of an intertwined lead in and natural journey to Tural, we merely get on the ship sailed by the worst sailors in history and go there with a sudden LURCH to help Wuk Lamat become Queen.

If you notice, all discussion about Dawntrail instantly pivots to its Blackhole Sue, because she really is all consuming. You think Dawntrail, you might think about some cool music or a neat boss, but in the back of your head Wuk is there, like a schizophrenic echo that you will never feel like you are fully rid of. She can do no wrong, wins by wanting to, she just has to be made to want it bad enough, and steps literally on every other characters' moments.

Meanwhile, with Stormblood, most people can think to several portions of it that have nothing to do with Lyse. Lyse was not hard coded/engrained into every inch of Stormblood. She was central and heavily featured, but part of her journey was actually watching other leaders do leadership better than she ever could, as she had leadership thrust upon her unexpectedly by a dying man. In base Stormblood she's admiring Hien. In post Stormblood she is admiring Raubahn. In both she is still making decisions, hard or dumb she makes them, and then she has to deal with the consequences.

Stormblood actually came into being before it became a mandate that all leveling dungeons had to be mandatory story as well, with Shisui of the Violet Tides being side content 100%. Stormblood cared a great deal about lore tie ins to other races and had an air of mystery in zones like the Ruby Sea. Dawntrail, what you see is what you get. Big beautiful mountain? That's the 93 story dungeon. Huge electric tower? That's Solution 9.

Then, as far as the raids go, Omega's raid had stakes for the world. If we didn't commit to Omega's danger room tournament, then he was gonna kill every regular joe all over Etheirys by spawning monsters on top of them. Arcadion stakes are saving some souls from being food for Alexandrians. There's a little mystery here, but it's suffering from the same problem as the rest of Dawntrail, and that is leaning way too hard into the, "Everything must be damn new!" There are no returning characters or Scions involved in the Arcadion raids(yet). Whereas with Omega, we got Cid, the Ironworks Boys, and Nero. Characters who had all featured in the MSQ and other side raid content throughout the game's history.

You should already be able to see the trend. Post patches Dawntrail is going to feature Wuk Lamat for 7.1 to 7.3. It's probably already written and done. Everything will have to be damn new, but the story will start to push towards Krile and the Holy Grail that now sports the Azem logo on its rim. The Arcadion Raid is going to revolve around Black Cat, her sisters, and the mystery of who the president is. The Metem Lalafell guy overseeing it already has our in road and battle party established, and we don't seem to require any contrivances, so it's probably just gonna be WoL with probably a new character to bounce off of Black Cat with each proceeding tier. Probably one of them will be her older sister, and maybe she'll take Cid's place in making us some duty action button device out of Electrope.

So, I don't think we have to wait. By the time Dawntrail post patches get good, the story will have shifted away from what was central to 7.0 itself, whereas for Stormblood, the post patches tied back into 4.0 which was already tied into the rest of the game. 7.x will have to invent reasons for previous side characters to come out to Tural. They can't all be Estinien. It will feel forced every inch of the way (name of Wuk Lamat's sex tape?).

[Nadda]

I won't read much into this.

BUT

What I will say is that on the whole most expansion stories really come into their own post msq. (Besides EW because it's more of a side story... And Shadowbringers which sort of built more onto what existed though Fandy dandy upon his introduction was kinda of cringe - Fandaniel at the time felt like a poorman's Emet Selch with no depth or character motivations)

Again I digress.

2.0's story was mostly a rehash of 1.0, coming into your own as an adventurer. Then beating the evil bad empire and saving the world.

All the major foundational story that changed everything happened after 2.0 which lead into HW
Similarly HW's after story dealt with the aftermath of a thousand year long war, introduced the warriors of darkness, and lead into Stormblood.
Everyone agrees that MSQ stormblood's story redeeming Yotsuyu was great and the looming threat of black rose, every main character dropping like flies was a major mystery box and lead into Shadowbringers.

In all cases minus the exceptions I mentioned first. Most MSQ stories didn't really get good or weren't fully explored until the post MSQ.

If we are to argue apples to apples, Of simply the first part of the MSQ I'd say Dawntrails base story is superior to the one in Stormblood. (but in small margins I liked both; and both were rather decent stories with gripes but nothing as incredible as what they preceded (HW, ShB/EW)

I'd go into more detail but it'd make a full dissertation so I'll end with a hot take.

The Twins should have stayed in Garlemald. It's truer to their characters to fix a broken nation. (Especially one for which they may feel guilt for those poor innocent civilians who died having rather flee than receive their help - that's a more powerful moment having them stay there and comeback maybe in some future story when Garlemald is no longer a smoldering ruin) Forcing them back into the fold as sidekicks undercut their development as fully realized characters with autonomy separate from the WoL. So I feel like the fact the twins sort of exist in the background is really emblematic of having "complete" characters who don't need to learn anything and are just here for the ride. Less so that they needed focus from Wuk Lamat. They are out of place for that reason. I could go further for other scions but I'll leave it there.

[KevinM1]

Everyone agrees that MSQ stormblood's story redeeming Yotsuyu was great

I don't. I thought it was embarrassingly bad. She (and Gosetsu) should've remained dead. It was cringy, soap opera level nonsense.

Regarding Stb vs DT, it's a hard decision.

I think StB Zenos is a worse character than DT Wuk. There's zero reason for him to be as strong as he is from the outset... his early triumphs don't feel earned, especially since the player has spent time killing what are essentially gods.
I think the story structure is far better in StB, even though we spend too much time in Othard. It's far, far less repetitive than DT's story.
StB handles the supporting characters far better. The secondary antagonists are far better constructed, and the Scions aren't reduced to being just set dressing.
I think the new jobs introduced in both are fun, so it's a push there.
DT has much, much better zones than StB, and it's not close. StB has the game's worst environment design.

[Nadda]

I don't. I thought it was embarrassingly bad. She (and Gosetsu) should've remained dead. It was cringy, soap opera level nonsense.

Regarding Stb vs DT, it's a hard decision.

I think StB Zenos is a worse character than DT Wuk. There's zero reason for him to be as strong as he is from the outset... his early triumphs don't feel earned, especially since the player has spent time killing what are essentially gods.
I think the story structure is far better in StB, even though we spend too much time in Othard. It's far, far less repetitive than DT's story.
StB handles the supporting characters far better. The secondary antagonists are far better constructed, and the Scions aren't reduced to being just set dressing.
I think the new jobs introduced in both are fun, so it's a push there.
DT has much, much better zones than StB, and it's not close. StB has the game's worst environment design.

It's more of a general consensus than an opinion I was sharing to be fair.

Ask for Zenos I agree and it never sat right for me from HW to Stormblood someone like Zenos be on par with us.
I think stormbloods structure was worse because of that huge pacing slog in the Othard. Specifically, the stretch through Yanxia and Azim Steppe is just forever. I felt while the Rite of Succession was repetitive you do a few quests off to the next. I wasn't sitting in one zone for too long.
Stormbloods supporting characters Hien, Gosetsu, and Yugiri are better I agree. Trying to think about secondary antagonists... Yotsuyu? She's kinda just evil dominatrix lady. Scions as I said in my lil quip perhaps I'll go into detail more here shouldn't really be here?

As I stated before the Twins should have remained in Garlemald. Graha'Tia should have joined us as a travel companion but for some reason wasn't. I feel like EW ends our Scions of the Seventh Dawn arc. Perhaps we're more aligned with the students of baldesion now and Graha and Krile are our new traveling companions (and sometimes Estinien)

People mention Krile should have had more focus but I felt as a mature adult she handled her little mystery box side story well by always asking relevant people about it and doing the rite is not only in service of progressing Wuk Lamats story which takes priority but it also gets us closer to the answers Krile is looking for. Could they have partitioned it out into an (A) plot and (B) plot where you follow both and maybe converge in Skydeep Cenote? I think that is possible.

People already didn't like positively reassuring our main call to adventure Wuk Lamat so doing that for two characters probably would have killed some people lol.

Urianger and Thancred could we have had more instances of direct friendly competition absolutely especially more earlier on? Just a few singular duties. Yeah probably.

Estinien always plays that like JRPG trope of a second strongest dude on the roster who the game holds back until the end. In his case, I wish he was with us longer towards the end.

Y'shtola I don't like her much at all but it has been nice for her to have gone to living memory since her stated goal is to traverse worlds.

I think Wuk Lamats focus as the main character for the story worked very well. Only thing is I think two things involving Zoraal Ja. Or maybe three.

There's the post Revenge portion. I think once Wuk Lamat gets her vengeance that's a wrap for her. She no longer needs to be in the story from that point onward and no not because she comes in the final fate. I'm surprised how many people that traumatized for some reason.

I think that Zoraal Ja having a son somehow makes no sense. I think that if we consider the Rite of Succession. We learn the most about Wuk's one sibling Koana (Reason) it makes sense then for us to spend more time learning about Zoraal Ja (Resolve) in the second half. Yet most of his character is hamfistedly shoved into his trial fight and I'm just left wondering (where the heck did all this imposter syndrome side of him come from?)

I feel like having a weird test tube baby and the whole "Erenville's Mom is dead? OH she's not dead she's using a robot.... WAIT SHE REALLY IS DEAD" sort of wasted time that could have been spent learning more about him.

And hearing Wuk talk about revenge especially when she let Bakool Jaja off the hook sort of felt like a dark stain on her character. I would have liked her to have at least been more conflicted about it. She truly looked up to her older brothers. That scene where you're at those monument stones and she realizes the thing she inherited from her Father was his desire for peace was a full circle moment for her.

She's not smart. She's not strong and stoic. But we all can see that if others had won the rite things could have gone very wrong for Turral. Wuk Lamat might lack the intelligence to really express it but she has an earnest emotional understanding of consequences that could happen that she didn't realize to that point.

I wish the writers could have taken inspiration from a great Native American leader of the Iroquois for this - Hiawatha the Great Peacemaker. (look up his story if you do not know)

I wanted peace to win out over vengeance but it doesn't get explored and gets diluted.

(Lastly) This was the third part.

Once all the Scions are assembled perhaps there was a path where we act as the vanguard (No pun intended) and from Heritage found on the story becomes a Scion (level) event that we need to take care of and Wuk and Koana are reserved at home. That also has potential. I'd have loved a single duty fighting our way back down the bridge of Shaaloni, Thancred, Urianger and Estinien meeting us on the other end be very cool.

DT to me is death by a thousand gripes. It's not awful it didn't traumatize me and as much as I disdain being dismissive of people's concerns the vitriolic levels railing on DT have exceeded my capacity for leniency.
Stormbloods main story was haphazard I felt a bit on the boring side. (BOTH however I enjoyed) They just both had the misfortune of following up some of the greatest acts in our games long history.

Stormblood followed post 2.0 and HW hype and Dawntrail is following our strongest arc by far of Shadowbringers and EW if not the whole 10 years of story in it's totality. That's a hard act to follow. In regards to its quality it is of the same class as Stormblood. And in terms of a launch pad at least for now is better than the 2.0 story was (as in Base 2.0) .