Omicrons and The Endless (Do Endless Dream of Electric Sheep?)

[ElHeggunte]

Since some people want to get into a debate about memories and what makes you you as a way to argue that the Endless are more than just simulacrums, let’s pose a simple question:

If you made a perfect copy of your memories and then transferred them into a simulated body, do you believe that would make two of you? Or would you think of the simulation as nothing more than a convincing copy that speaks and acts like you because you have the same memories? Now what if the real you suddenly died and the copy survived? Would you consider the copy to be the real you or would it still be a copy? What if the copy were made after the real you died?

Because that’s all the Endless are—simulations of people who are long dead. They are simulacrums of people who had their memories harvested and they are powered by captured souls. Hardly what I would call “alive”.

And I wouldn’t compare them to the beings in Ultima Thule either, as seems to be a popular argument, because, well, Dynamis is a bunch of phlebotium.

[EusisLandale]

And I wouldn’t compare them to the beings in Ultima Thule either, as seems to be a popular argument, because, well, Dynamis is a bunch of phlebotium.

And the magical Electrope super computer doing basically the same thing isn't?

[SongOfTheWind]

I don't know. I just know that in this MSQ they explained that people's memories are separated from their souls to create the endless, so memories and souls are two separate things. But what makes a person alive? Is it their memories or their soul? I say the soul, whatever that is. I think we are supposed to be a fragment of one of the ancient's soul.

"Azem [ˈæz.ɛm] is a character from Final Fantasy XIV. The forgotten fourteenth seat of Amaurot's Convocation of Fourteen before the sundering of Etheirys, they were associated with the sun. They were an adventurer in spirit, yearning to explore the world to discover its wonders and help its denizens. "Azem" is a title rather than a given name, a position otherwise known as the Traveler, and tasked with exploring the larger world of Etheirys and becoming intimate with its myriad peoples and cultures...This greater part of their soul would eventually be reincarnated as the Warrior of Light..."

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Azem

In that case Hermes would like to have a word with you. His dilemma (or part of it) was that Ancient treated living magical creatures as lesser beings based on the soulless argument and disposed of them without second thought. Meteon was one of them too. Was she not alive then? What about Ultima Thule citizens after the omicron gatherers side quests?
Ardbert is also part of the original Azem’ soul. Is he the same person as our WoL? We clearly are shown as two independent individuals. At least I would say so.
During the Endwalker MSQ the memory and souls and their behaviour in the lifestream were attempted to be explained as a different type of aether essentially, which carries the identity, if you want. Not every soul is even reborn as is, it seems to depend on its individual quality, which adds up to confusion. And not to forget that it is all not an absolute knowledge, but the current scientific in-world explanations. They were wrong about Echo and blessing of Light for example, as they simply didn’t know better.
It is clear at least that it is something that can be used to track down a person and recognise if you can see it. Almost like a unique signature or DNA. But it alone does not make the same person. We are not Azem. We are never treated by those who knew them as such, we only remind of a person who once was.
We also are shown how beings without that “signature” bit seem to be the same as you would expect any other living person be. If you were not *told* they lack a soul hence are not people - how would you tell? They dream, they are self aware, they form new memories, they have free will, etc. They don’t have a traditional lifecycle as most, but they are also not the first to differ like that. Ancients also didn’t die naturally, they only were choosing to enter the lifestream to “sleep” and be reborn later. So why do we suddenly base all our perception of Endless on the concept that doesn’t seem to matter?

[Nitelancer]

Why would they need souls if they don't have souls??

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. I was explaining that the difference between something being alive and not alive is having a soul. The Endless do not have souls, therefore, they are not alive and we did not kill them as the OP suggested.

[PyurBlue]

Well, in the game reincarnation is a fact and souls are real, and it's something that's been coming up in the story quite a bit, so maybe they should have a definitive explanation of how it all works in the game, or at least have one in mind while writing the story.

This is why there is so much discussion on the topic. The game says Endless aren't alive or people or whatever. You can take the game at its word but if you don't it's a huge ambiguous question and this is why people are divided.

If you made a perfect copy of your memories and then transferred them into a simulated body, do you believe that would make two of you? Or would you think of the simulation as nothing more than a convincing copy that speaks and acts like you because you have the same memories? Now what if the real you suddenly died and the copy survived? Would you consider the copy to be the real you or would it still be a copy? What if the copy were made after the real you died?

What happened to the soul? Endless could have just been AI and then it would have been an open and shut case, but they're not.

Because that’s all the Endless are—simulations of people who are long dead. They are simulacrums of people who had their memories harvested and they are powered by captured souls. Hardly what I would call “alive”.

They don't appear very different from natural in-story reincarnation.

[MikkoAkure]

So why do we suddenly base all our perception of Endless on the concept that doesn’t seem to matter?

The Endless cannot exist independently out of the system that supports them and they are artificially created in a factory by purposefully spitting in the face of nature and preventing reincarnation by storing the memory and soul separately on a computer server. They cannot naturally make more of themselves while Ultima Thule beings have already been proven to be able to give birth to new generations.

These people already died. There's no reason for us to save them. They don't need to continue existing past death and they require the death and processing of living people to keep going on. At least the Ultima Thule beings can exist independently and don't have a kill switch. Even then, if the story demanded their death for us to be able to move forward, I'm sure we would have done the same to them as well.

The Ultima Thule beings were brought back into existence without being asked about it but their existence is stable and they're now trying to make the best of it. The Endless signed up for extended "life" against the laws of nature and didn't even put up a fight when they were finally put to rest. Their existence is a danger to our world and our afterlife. If we left them alone, they'd turn into monsters and there's no guarantee we could have even saved them with other methods even if we wanted to.

Also not sure where you got the thing about Ancients "sleeping". When they return to the lifestream it's the same death everyone else gets. Not sure there's a rule about being reborn as Ancients either since souls are souls and they wouldn't have any memories since we know the lifestream washes those away.

[anna-steele]

the geth asked its creator "does this unit have a soul"

then a galactic war broke out. lets not repeat that here

[SongOfTheWind]

The Endless cannot exist independently out of the system that supports them and they are artificially created in a factory by purposefully spitting in the face of nature and preventing reincarnation by storing the memory and soul separately on a computer server. They cannot naturally make more of themselves while Ultima Thule beings have already been proven to be able to give birth to new generations.

These people already died. There's no reason for us to save them. They don't need to continue existing past death and they require the death and processing of living people to keep going on. At least the Ultima Thule beings can exist independently and don't have a kill switch. Even then, if the story demanded their death for us to be able to move forward, I'm sure we would have done the same to them as well.

The Ultima Thule beings were brought back into existence without being asked about it but their existence is stable and they're now trying to make the best of it. The Endless signed up for extended "life" against the laws of nature and didn't even put up a fight when they were finally put to rest. Their existence is a danger to our world and our afterlife. If we left them alone, they'd turn into monsters and there's no guarantee we could have even saved them with other methods even if we wanted to.

Also not sure where you got the thing about Ancients "sleeping". When they return to the lifestream it's the same death everyone else gets. Not sure there's a rule about being reborn as Ancients either since souls are souls and they wouldn't have any memories since we know the lifestream washes those away.

You are mixing the question of sustainability with the question of are they alive/real if they don’t have a soul. You can’t explain one with the other. And on the topic of laws of nature - do dragons defy it? They live pretty much till bored and they don’t need a partner to lay an egg and give new life.

[Nitelancer]

In that case Hermes would like to have a word with you. His dilemma (or part of it) was that Ancient treated living magical creatures as lesser beings based on the soulless argument and disposed of them without second thought. Meteon was one of them too. Was she not alive then? What about Ultima Thule citizens after the omicron gatherers side quests?
Ardbert is also part of the original Azem’ soul. Is he the same person as our WoL? We clearly are shown as two independent individuals. At least I would say so.
During the Endwalker MSQ the memory and souls and their behaviour in the lifestream were attempted to be explained as a different type of aether essentially, which carries the identity, if you want. Not every soul is even reborn as is, it seems to depend on its individual quality, which adds up to confusion. And not to forget that it is all not an absolute knowledge, but the current scientific in-world explanations. They were wrong about Echo and blessing of Light for example, as they simply didn’t know better.
It is clear at least that it is something that can be used to track down a person and recognise if you can see it. Almost like a unique signature or DNA. But it alone does not make the same person. We are not Azem. We are never treated by those who knew them as such, we only remind of a person who once was.
We also are shown how beings without that “signature” bit seem to be the same as you would expect any other living person be. If you were not *told* they lack a soul hence are not people - how would you tell? They dream, they are self aware, they form new memories, they have free will, etc. They don’t have a traditional lifecycle as most, but they are also not the first to differ like that. Ancients also didn’t die naturally, they only were choosing to enter the lifestream to “sleep” and be reborn later. So why do we suddenly base all our perception of Endless on the concept that doesn’t seem to matter?

If the soul carries the signature that shapes and identifies a person in their life, then the Endless do not have that signature. Neither do they have any physical form (I think). That is why they are not the same as us or the people they are simulations of, and that is why it's ok to turn them off lol.

What is interesting with Otis is that his soul was drawn into a robot, a vessel. That means it is possible to transfer souls into artificial constructs. In that case, those magical creatures could come to have souls. I am not sure if those souls would have to be the souls of other creatures and beings or if the souls could be drawn directly from the lifestream. But if they do not have souls, then I don't see them as the same as other living beings.

[Ascended_Demon]

You really need to stop with this idea that Alexandria is part of the 12th shard. The 12th is gone and has been for a long time. If Alexandria was part of the 12th it would not have been rejoined. Just because they suffered a Calamity of Lightning, and we already had one, doesn't mean there wasn't going to be a second one. There were 13 reflections while there are only 6 (if we include darkness and light then 8) elements, there would inevitably be repeats. Besides, if the references were intentional, it's more than likely the shard Alexandria was originally from was the 9th. Solution Nine. The whole fact that Alexandria is just a callback to FF9.