Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

[fioravictorine]

"The WOL is not a mentor figure"

"Yes they are"

"No they aren't name a time"

"These 3 times"

"I don't like these 3 times"

"These 3 times are pretty similar to other liked parts of the story where the WoL is a mentor figure"

"Strawman"

Lol what? An argument you disagree with doesn't have to be fallacious, especially against something entirely opinion based. You could just say 'I disagree' rather than misusing the term strawman.

You can argue that the story of us being a mentor isn't good or well done. But, again, its literally part of the text. It happens. "How do I handle this situation" "Here is how" "Thanks I learned a lesson" is a pretty clear cut example of what is intended to be mentorship.

Oh, wasn't that what you were doing? You keep bringing up Alphi and HW despite it has nothing to do with 'WoL being a mentor figure to Wuk Lamat' which is literally what many Wuk lovers are parroting

If you phrase this 'mentorship' as being so poorly done to the point it appears near non-existent - then yeah, we both might have something to agree on

[Carin-Eri]

To me the worst offense was Wuk Lamat barging in the final fight, it absolutely ruined the moment. In fact, while I was upset with the MSQ, right at that moment, when Wuk Lamat came in from nowhere to attack Sphene, was when I decided I would leave a bad online review of this expansion. I never felt so much contempt for a character in this game before.

That moment, above all others, annoyed me too and the dialogue didn't help either - it was pretty hypocritical for the dialogue to identify us as "the single greatest threat" only to contradict that by having Wuk Lamat appear and present us with a unnecessary 'here I come to save the day!' moment.

To be honest, it felt like they tried to what they did with Zenos in Ultima Thule (bursting through a barrier to come to our aid in our moment of need) which made sense in that context; we were literally alone and, like it or not, needed Zenos. But the writers missed the point in the Queen Eternal fight; the scenario with Zenos worked exactly because we were alone Vs an overwhelming foe, which simply wasn't the case VS Queen Eternal. Nothing in the scenario suggested we were losing or were overwhelmed and we certainly weren't alone thanks to the awesomeness of Azem's crystal, which means Wuk Lamat's appearance was unnecessary and, sadly, did take the wind out of the sails of the fight.
Personally, I would have preferred something more akin to the Endsinger 'Light the Way' moment, which would've kept Wuk Lamat relevant (and made the others less useless) without having her steal the spotlight.

And it's a pity it played out that way, because it is otherwise a great trial with absolutely epic music.

[dezzmont]

Wuk Lamat had a fairly earned dynamic with Sphene though, mainly that she was actually her friend to some extent, and would be the one who would be taking care of her subjects after. I think the flaw with that scene is mostly that Krile really should have been a way bigger character in the second half, and been there to bust in alongside her with whatever dynamic she didn't get to have with Sphene, considering she kinda technically sorta was an Alexadrian who Sphene would have killed.

A huge problem with Wuk Lamat isn't that she was the 'main character' but that Dawntrail did way less to hide the fact she was the main character than previous expansions (And basically every 'secret main character' gets to share a moment with you in the final act: Alphinauld helping get the eye, Lyse trying to and failing to stop Zenos from escaping justice, The Exarch doing your summoning trick for you for the first time), in part because most of the ensemble cast were basically rotating cameos, and one of the major ones who stuck around basically existed to deliver a plot solving earring that wasn't even enough to actually solve the problem it exist to solve. Its a bit 'chicken and egg' to blame a weak supporting cast for a lead coming across as overbearing, but I doubt the story would suffer from the supporting cast being much more focused and consistent.

[Mondschnee]

That moment, above all others, annoyed me too and the dialogue didn't help either - it was pretty hypocritical for the dialogue to identify us as "the single greatest threat" only to contradict that by having Wuk Lamat appear and present us with a unnecessary 'here I come to save the day!' moment.

The writer(s) were trying to reference the moment where Alisaie said to Wuk Lamat: "Don't let her/him bear the burden alone."
Unfortunately, for me this didn't land at all.
I was enjoying the fight so much and then the intermission cutscene happened and I needed to keep telling myself that this is ok. But I was trying really hard not to cringe. And I *like* Wuk Lamat. But she was pushed onto us so much that even for me, she became really annoying at times.

[Carin-Eri]

The writer(s) were trying to reference the moment where Alisaie said to Wuk Lamat: "Don't let her/him bear the burden alone."
Unfortunately, for me this didn't land at all.
I was enjoying the fight so much and then the intermission cutscene happened and I needed to keep telling myself that this is ok. But I was trying really hard not to cringe. And I *like* Wuk Lamat. But she was pushed onto us so much that even for me, she became really annoying at times.

Agreed. Again, it does feel as if they tried to mirror Endwalker in this respect, since Alisaie had a couple of "you shouldn't have to fight alone" moments there.

But as you say, it missed the mark here. Firstly because we weren't alone, and secondly because her appearance implied that we needed her help - and we didn't.

Honestly - the nonsense of her appearing during the fight could be cut out and I don't think it would make much difference - she didn't say anything that she hadn't already said and she didn't change Sphene's mind, which means we could've left her out and had her talk to Sphene afterward, which she did anyway!

[Voidmage]

I will note a lot of stories don't necessarily need the main protagonist. In Shadowbringers and Endwalker we are important and special, but I would say Heavensward, Stormblood, and ARR would not be especially different if not for us. If we sat out many of the events would go rougly the same save for how our presence inspires others to act, which is exactly what happens in Dawntrail.

I just want to chime in here because I keep reading that.
Without us in ARR, HW and SB everything would fall down.

ARR
Without us no one would have stopped the Ultima weapon and Eorza would be defeated.
Without us there would have been lots and lots of bloodshed because you would have the company of heroes scenario were people are thrown at the primals and the tempered are killed after that.
Without us Minfillia would be dead because of Nabriales and Shb would not have worked.
Without us a Ralghar primal would have been summoned.
Without us Midgardsomr would still be sleeping and ignoring everything in the world.
Without us the crystal tower would not have been cleared or the cloud of darkness would have invaded.

HW
Without us Thordan would have won.
Without us Estinien would be dead and I don‘t know what would have happened to Alphinaud.
Without us Ishgard and the heretics would still be at war because Shiva would be successful.
The war would have never ended or Ishgard would have been destroyed.

SB
Without us Zenos would have kept killing people in Rhalgars Reach (he stopped because of us more or less)
Without us no one knows what would have happened with Lakshmi and Susanoo.

These are just out of my head.
All I say is no the events would have not been the same. We kickstart many things or prevent them.
It would be a cataclysmic butterfly effect.

These are just compact on the specific expansion ignoring all else.
If Garlemald conquered Eorzea then Ishgard would be in a two front war, Stormblood would never happened and so on.

There is a reason G’Raha did the time travel thing. It’s because of us. Because we ARE important.

[aiqa]

A huge problem with Wuk Lamat isn't that she was the 'main character' but that Dawntrail did way less to hide the fact she was the main character than previous expansions

I really don't get what you are trying to argue there. There is a huge spectrum for how important 1 character is in a story, between having no main characters, and only having 1 important character. People who complain about Wuk being the main character obviously feel the story has shifted to much to having only 1 important character. Trying to make that discussion about who else could be called a main character, or if "main character" is a problem itself, completely misses the point.

[Zackneifein]

"The WOL is not a mentor figure"

"Yes they are"

"No they aren't name a time"

"These 3 times"

"I don't like these 3 times"

"These 3 times are pretty similar to other liked parts of the story where the WoL is a mentor figure"

"Strawman"

Lol what? An argument you disagree with doesn't have to be fallacious, especially against something entirely opinion based. You could just say 'I disagree' rather than misusing the term strawman.

You can argue that the story of us being a mentor isn't good or well done. But, again, its literally part of the text. It happens. "How do I handle this situation" "Here is how" "Thanks I learned a lesson" is a pretty clear cut example of what is intended to be mentorship.

We are "said" that we are a "mentor", but we aren't shown to be one in a satisfaying manner and that's the problem.

The WoL don't give advice to Wuk Lamat based on their experiences (what a good mentor should do) but common one that could be displayed on a cheap mug at best. They doesn't even show why they could be a mentor since our reputation doesn't matter in Tural. In all fictions where there is one, a mentor has moments to shine alone, what we could call "badass moments", we barely have one of them during Wuk Lamat "trials", when we are marching menacingly toward Bakool Ja Ja ignoring his goons.

They don't reprimand her, never, even when she objectively did wrong. Just think how interesting it would have been if it's not to her father, but to her that they said "You aren't ready yet", this could have been the trigger to her evolution. But no, the fact is that she doesn't need a mentor figure since she finds all the answers by herself at the end and everyone, except Zoraal Ja, end up falling in love with her within seconds, even people her father failed to pacify in 80 years.

If the WoL was truly written has a mentor, a good one and Wuk Lamat was shown in need of one, a lot of the bitterness of Wuk Lamat from some players would disappear since the WoL would have been one of the driving forces behind her evolution. We would have mattered in her story.
And if the WoL had some other moments to shine, her intervention during the last trial would have felt more deserved.

A lot of what's wrong with this expansion is that they failed to depict the WoL as a mentor, and by failing that, the WoL doesn't have agency and importance anymore, resulting in this "I'm just the cameraman of Wuk Lamat story" feeling. It's also why a lot of people don't like Vaan and Penelo in FFXII.

[SongOfTheWind]

That moment, above all others, annoyed me too and the dialogue didn't help either - it was pretty hypocritical for the dialogue to identify us as "the single greatest threat" only to contradict that by having Wuk Lamat appear and present us with a unnecessary 'here I come to save the day!' moment.

To be honest, it felt like they tried to what they did with Zenos in Ultima Thule (bursting through a barrier to come to our aid in our moment of need) which made sense in that context; we were literally alone and, like it or not, needed Zenos. But the writers missed the point in the Queen Eternal fight; the scenario with Zenos worked exactly because we were alone Vs an overwhelming foe, which simply wasn't the case VS Queen Eternal. Nothing in the scenario suggested we were losing or were overwhelmed and we certainly weren't alone thanks to the awesomeness of Azem's crystal, which means Wuk Lamat's appearance was unnecessary and, sadly, did take the wind out of the sails of the fight.
Personally, I would have preferred something more akin to the Endsinger 'Light the Way' moment, which would've kept Wuk Lamat relevant (and made the others less useless) without having her steal the spotlight.

And it's a pity it played out that way, because it is otherwise a great trial with absolutely epic music.

I wonder, have you done the ff16 collab event? That fight we had with Clive was the 1st time I got an odd feeling of being a 3rd wheel in a fight. As we are there to support him and make him do the rest of it, so anticlimactic I was kinda baffled. I guess that is where thye tried this new approach of us being just a spectator.

[Rannie]

We tell Vath Deftarms "stfu stop whining and do your job" while mentoring them as an adventurer...

Wuk Lamat we just tell her "it's ok booboo you're great and awesome!"