Physical Ranged (Also SMN) "Freedom of Movement" Tax

[NightHour]

I think the gap should exist but be way more closer.

Not a fan of a job like black mage (for this example BLM should be way higher then it currently is anyway lol) dealing the same damage as a machinist, but the current gap I believe in Physical ranged being much much closer in terms of numbers, I'd really want physical ranged to be only like 2-3% behind though even if that.

Maybe a unpopular opinion here taking the "middle ground" but I think theirs some truth to be said when jobs are much harder in positioning and everything they do compared to a job who has very good movement ect. I feel like we would be running triple physical ranged if they did the same damage as melee/caster (without the 1% buff also being a factor)

Dancer and Bard are 20-26% behind melee.

Red Mage is almost 13% ahead of Dancer while having as much utility, free instant casts and a raise.


It's not like Physical Ranged bring any unique raid support or anything either.

Technical Finish and Radiant Finale are no different in functionality to Brotherhood or Mug for example.



Machinist brings nothing but damage and is beat by RDM and SMN, classes with raise.



The difference should be 5-10% max between Melee and Ranged... not 20-26%.



This is what I think WoW does well in the balancing department, they don't unnecessarily tax ranged dps.

A good ranged player can beat a unskilled melee, in this game the unskilled melee beats the skilled ranged player by default for the most part.



At the most Ranged should deal 5-10% less damage than a melee/BLM not 20-26%.




And for all the melee players saying "Oh but not taxing ranged would make no one play melee" - No it wouldn't, Melee jobs are super fun to play, no ones ever gonna ditch playing Viper or Reaper for example to play Dancer or Bard.


Physical Ranged are taxed way too heavily and the discreprancy needs to be reduced.

20-26% less damage is unacceptable.


If 5% didn't exist, these jobs would probably die out.

[Aco505]

Snip

If you look at the 99 percentiles for the current extremes in the FFlogs webpage, the difference between BRD/DNC and melee is around 2k rDPS or 10%. It's not 20%+

When it comes to aDPS, MCH is below NIN/DRG by 1k, which is around 5%, and is above all the other ranged DPS besides PCT and BLM.

Finally, in the nDPS department, MCH is still above the aforementioned ranged DPS and closer to DRG/NIN, by 400-500 points.


As other posters have said, the gap overall should be lower between the top and the bottom (e. g. I haven't included the difference in rDPS between PCT and MCH, which is almost 3k points) but there's also a misconception when it comes to understanding the metrics FFlogs provides.

A "selfish" job can never have higher rDPS than a job with buffs and, vice versa, a job with buffs should never have higher aDPS than a selfish job. All these metrics have to be understood in different contexts and compared to one another.

All the metrics FFlogs uses are based on party comp in one way or another except for nDPS, so that's also something relevant to consider.

If MCH, for instance, had higher rDPS than BRD/DNC, then MCH would eclipse them and be the default choice for all content. DNC might be alright due to SAM but that's about it. This doesn't change the fact that MCH's damage is likely a bit too low at the moment, however.

Examples of why this would be problematic can be found in Criterion dungeons, where the best jobs were the more "selfish" ones -BLM, SAM, RPR, MCH and SMN- and several ranged DPS such as SMN were equal or above the other melee in rDPS not only due to the fact that you have to work for your uptime there but also because buff jobs are at a disadvantage due to having less targets to buff and the compensating dungeon buff being applied to everyone in the party and not the buff jobs themselves. This also affects other roles such as healers with SGE being clearly superior to the other options.

Outside of Criterion dungeon, we have examples such as SAM in ShB and BLM in the later stages of EW, where they had higher rDPS than buffing jobs as well, meaning that a SAM/BLM on a dummy alone would provide higher rDPS to the party than a NIN buffing 7 other people in a "perfect" comp and with everyone doing their job well. And a SAM/BLM in that situation still benefits from buffs, thus increasing their DPS (aDPS in this case) further.

TL; DR. The gap between the top and the bottom jobs should be lowered. Whether we believe ranged DPS should deal less or not due to their full uptime, a "selfish" job can never have higher rDPS than a buffing job and vice versa when it comes to aDPS. Part of the issue of the DPS difference between jobs and roles lies in encounter design, as Criterion dungeons show.

[NightHour]

If you look at the 99 percentiles for the current extremes in the FFlogs webpage, the difference between BRD/DNC and melee is around 2k rDPS or 10%. It's not 20%+

When it comes to aDPS, MCH is below NIN/DRG by 1k, which is around 5%, and is above all the other ranged DPS besides PCT and BLM.

Finally, in the nDPS department, MCH is still above the aforementioned ranged DPS and closer to DRG/NIN, by 400-500 points.


As other posters have said, the gap overall should be lower between the top and the bottom (e. g. I haven't included the difference in rDPS between PCT and MCH, which is almost 3k points) but there's also a misconception when it comes to understanding the metrics FFlogs provides.

A "selfish" job can never have higher rDPS than a job with buffs and, vice versa, a job with buffs should never have higher aDPS than a selfish job. All these metrics have to be understood in different contexts and compared to one another.

All the metrics FFlogs uses are based on party comp in one way or another except for nDPS, so that's also something relevant to consider.



Also most of the reasons why the tax existed aren't exactly prevalent in current day XIV

1. Ability to attack from range? Most mechanics resolve at Max melee now a days, melee are handed uptime on a silver platter.
2. Raid buffs and Support? Ok then what's Brotherhood, Battle Litany, Mug, Arcane Circle, Mantra, Arcane Crest? Raid buffs / Support in Mantra's case.
3. Mobility? Sure but that doesn't warrant the current levels of damage difference.
If MCH, for instance, had higher rDPS than BRD/DNC, then MCH would eclipse them and be the default choice for all content. DNC might be alright due to SAM but that's about it. This doesn't change the fact that MCH's damage is likely a bit too low at the moment, however.

Examples of why this would be problematic can be found in Criterion dungeons, where the best jobs were the more "selfish" ones -BLM, SAM, RPR, MCH and SMN- and several ranged DPS such as SMN were equal or above the other melee in rDPS not only due to the fact that you have to work for your uptime there but also because buff jobs are at a disadvantage due to having less targets to buff and the compensating dungeon buff being applied to everyone in the party and not the buff jobs themselves. This also affects other roles such as healers with SGE being clearly superior to the other options.

Outside of Criterion dungeon, we have examples such as SAM in ShB and BLM in the later stages of EW, where they had higher rDPS than buffing jobs as well, meaning that a SAM/BLM on a dummy alone would provide higher rDPS to the party than a NIN buffing 7 other people in a "perfect" comp and with everyone doing their job well. And a SAM/BLM in that situation still benefits from buffs, thus increasing their DPS (aDPS in this case) further.

TL; DR. The gap between the top and the bottom jobs should be lowered. Whether we believe ranged DPS should deal less or not due to their full uptime, a "selfish" job can never have higher rDPS than a buffing job and vice versa when it comes to aDPS. Part of the issue of the DPS difference between jobs and roles lies in encounter design, as Criterion dungeons show.

I'm looking at 70 percentile for the following reasons -


It's the minimum where I'd consider someone decent at their jobs and is a much larger sample size of data.

[Aco505]

I'm looking at 70 percentile for the following reasons -


It's the minimum where I'd consider someone decent at their jobs and is a much larger sample size of data.

It's very likely that the devs do not balance the jobs based on what we understand as the 99th percentile either. They probably do it at around the 75-90 or so. But that will come at a cost, too, since jobs being balanced at lower percentiles will not mean that there won't be differences at higher ones.

However, at least the differences in output at higher percentiles are more consistent with the jobs' potential.