Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[Voidmage]

Initial impressions from video gamers are something aren’t worth much to me. Remember when wind Waker was called trash because it was too cartoony?

Wind Waker was never really called trash. It had a lukewarm reception before people could play it and then the biggest criticism was that it was actually short with artificial long sailing. I was there when it came out.
Also people were confused because the tech demo before that was something else entirely.

Just because initial impressions don't matter to you doesn't make them unimportant.
They are the most important thing for developers because it doesn't matter how a game sells over 2 years but in the first few weeks to month.
Also a lukewarm initial reception is bad pr.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Wind Waker was never really called trash. It had a lukewarm reception before people could play it and then the biggest criticism was that it was actually short with artificial long sailing. I was there when it came out.
Also people were confused because the tech demo before that was something else entirely.

Just because initial impressions don't matter to you doesn't make them unimportant.
They are the most important thing for developers because it doesn't matter how a game sells over 2 years but in the first few weeks to month.
Also a lukewarm initial reception is bad pr.

Wind Waker was called trash, this is revisionist history lol

[KurenXIV]

Wind Waker was called trash, this is revisionist history lol

No, it's not. People were AVERSE to trying Wind Waker because of the art style. Those who did play Wind Waker had valid complaints but the game was far from called trash.

The feedback Nintendo took from this was appropriate (even if the art style was really great in the end) and that was people didn't really want super cartoony art style for The Legend of Zelda series (at least not the main games).

To draw a parallel, I have friends who weren't interested in DT because of the way the expansion was pitched to us (through live letters and trailers). That's similar to what you saw with Wind Waker and those who didn't like the art style.

To say people playing DT, going through the story and expressing how it was not enjoyable is the same is a false equivalency. That's not an "initial impression".

It's the same as people saying "it's a new start to the story! You can't expect it to be good!"; the run time of the MSQ is longer than most seasons of TV shows and longer than movies by many hours.

How much hand waving is needed to try and get rid of valid criticism?

I didn't enjoy the first half of the story, I didn't like the middle part of the story and I really didn't like the ending. Is that an initial impression or do we need to keep moving the goal post for what/when we can consider feedback valid?

[OdinelStarrei]

No, it's not. People were AVERSE to trying Wind Waker because of the art style. Those who did play Wind Waker had valid complaints but the game was far from called trash.

The feedback Nintendo took from this was appropriate (even if the art style was really great in the end) and that was people didn't really want super cartoony art style for The Legend of Zelda series (at least not the main games).

To draw a parallel, I have friends who weren't interested in DT because of the way the expansion was pitched to us (through live letters and trailers). That's similar to what you saw with Wind Waker and those who didn't like the art style.

To say people playing DT, going through the story and expressing how it was not enjoyable is the same is a false equivalency. That's not an "initial impression".

It's the same as people saying "it's a new start to the story! You can't expect it to be good!"; the run time of the MSQ is longer than most seasons of TV shows and longer than movies by many hours.

How much hand waving is needed to try and get rid of valid criticism?

I didn't enjoy the first half of the story, I didn't like the middle part of the story and I really didn't like the ending. Is that an initial impression or do we need to keep moving the goal post for what/when we can consider feedback valid?

Well obviously, you're supposed to wait 2.5 years for ALL of DT to be out for feedback to be valid, even though DT is guilty of many of the same mistakes EW has had for years now, both in terms of story and gameplay, but by then we can be easily shrugged off by saying "If it's so bad why did you play it for 2.5 years" or "You weren't around for the patches when it got good like in ARR, you're not allowed to complain." depending on which side of the knife we fall on.

The point is that no criticism outside of the ones that are easily agreeable like "lmao square grapes" are going to be seen as anything but whining about nothing, even if the game itself is harmed by such an approach.

[Maxilor]

Well obviously, you're supposed to wait 2.5 years for ALL of DT to be out for feedback to be valid, even though DT is guilty of many of the same mistakes EW has had for years now, both in terms of story and gameplay, but by then we can be easily shrugged off by saying "If it's so bad why did you play it for 2.5 years" or "You weren't around for the patches when it got good like in ARR, you're not allowed to complain." depending on which side of the knife we fall on.

The point is that no criticism outside of the ones that are easily agreeable like "lmao square grapes" are going to be seen as anything but whining about nothing, even if the game itself is harmed by such an approach.

I concur.

If I walk into a restaurant and for an appetizer, they serve me a bowl of poop I'm not going to sit around and hope they bring out the Filet Mignon next.

Granted they have done excellent post-patch content in the past (HW) but will it be enough to save Dawntrail? I don't know if many people are willing to wait it out.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

No, it's not. People were AVERSE to trying Wind Waker because of the art style. Those who did play Wind Waker had valid complaints but the game was far from called trash.

The feedback Nintendo took from this was appropriate (even if the art style was really great in the end) and that was people didn't really want super cartoony art style for The Legend of Zelda series (at least not the main games).

To draw a parallel, I have friends who weren't interested in DT because of the way the expansion was pitched to us (through live letters and trailers). That's similar to what you saw with Wind Waker and those who didn't like the art style.

To say people playing DT, going through the story and expressing how it was not enjoyable is the same is a false equivalency. That's not an "initial impression".

It's the same as people saying "it's a new start to the story! You can't expect it to be good!"; the run time of the MSQ is longer than most seasons of TV shows and longer than movies by many hours.

How much hand waving is needed to try and get rid of valid criticism?

I didn't enjoy the first half of the story, I didn't like the middle part of the story and I really didn't like the ending. Is that an initial impression or do we need to keep moving the goal post for what/when we can consider feedback valid?

I didn’t move any goalpost or handwave anything, I was just expanding on a side point. People did call wind Waker trash even after it came out because they weren’t able to look past the art style. There wasn’t this magical come to Jesus moment where everyone did a 180 on the game the day it came out. It took years for that negative sentiment to dissipate to where WW is now considered a Zelda classic

[KurenXIV]

I didn’t move any goalpost or handwave anything, I was just expanding on a side point. People did call wind Waker trash even after it came out because they weren’t able to look past the art style. There wasn’t this magical come to Jesus moment where everyone did a 180 on the game the day it came out. It took years for that negative sentiment to dissipate to where WW is now considered a Zelda classic

You're drawing a false parallel. Reviewers and gamers alike who played Wind Waker lauded the game. It had incredibly high review scores and those who played it generally said favorably things about the game.

Sure, those who were turned off by the art style didn't want to even play the game so they could call it whatever they want (trash or otherwise); and yes over time people who may have skipped the original launch have gone back and enjoyed the game for what it is; but that's not what is happening here.

You don't have people saying "Yuck! Look at these elements of Dawntrail! I don't want to play it!", you have people who bought the game, played through it and did not care for it.

It's not as though years from now the people who didn't enjoy it will look back and say "boy I sure was wrong about DT, it had a really great story line at launch".

[Amh_Wilzuun]

You're drawing a false parallel. Reviewers and gamers alike who played Wind Waker lauded the game. It had incredibly high review scores and those who played it generally said favorably things about the game.

Sure, those who were turned off by the art style didn't want to even play the game so they could call it whatever they want (trash or otherwise); and yes over time people who may have skipped the original launch have gone back and enjoyed the game for what it is; but that's not what is happening here.

You don't have people saying "Yuck! Look at these elements of Dawntrail! I don't want to play it!", you have people who bought the game, played through it and did not care for it.

It's not as though years from now the people who didn't enjoy it will look back and say "boy I sure was wrong about DT, it had a really great story line at launch".

Wasn’t drawing a direct parallel. Was just giving an anecdote on why I don’t put a lot of stock into early reactions. I also wasn’t talking about review scores as people didnt really care about those back then since they were mainly in magazines. Tired of people misconstruing what I said for upvotes