Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[Alenore]

Now that I see the graph, it's funny how some people said Wuk Lamat had over 70% of all lines in the expansion lol.

I have yet to find where the data for this graph, but the first occurrence of it seemed to come from a Reddit post where the OP originally posted the graph without multiple characters including Koana. And then he left out more when posting the corrected version.

Main characters have anywhere between 5% (Minfillia in ARR) to 20% (Alphinaud in HW) lines in the overall MSQ script of each expansion.

Considering we're missing multiple characters in this graph (Galuf, the twins from Heritage Found, etc) and given Wuk Lamat is at 24% in this one, she's not far off from other expansions.

[honest_psycho]

Her approach never changed...

There, you just admitted that WL doesnt have any character growth.

[honest_psycho]

Meanwhile Wuk Lamat has multiple straight-up speeches, and like we've said, is the protagonist of the story who has a pronounced presence in every single zone. It is also entirely reasonable that her numbers are that high.

Yes, this is exactly the problem EVERYONE is complaining about.

This graph is a cherry-picked statistic...

What is it? You say she has multiple speeches and then you say the statistics are wrong.
I don't even understand why youre gaslighting this hard.

Your feelings are valid. But 'valid' doesn't mean 'fact'.

Translation: "Your opinion is wrong and if you dont agree with me, you are just too stupid to understand the nuances like only an enlightened Poet like me can".

You really think we're this stupid?

[Cleretic]

There, you just admitted that WL doesnt have any character growth.

'Character gains confidence and a voice of leadership of their own' is actually a really common character arc. Most likely because it's a thing a lot of people who become leaders actually go through in real life. Wuk Lamat's use of it is I think pretty strong and very clearly pronounced, it's a heightened and kinda fantastical version of something I've seen people go through personally, including myself. You're allowed to not like it, but the fact you don't seem to recognize it on a base level suggests you might not be reading the story especially well. That would be like not recognizing Estinien as having a character arc of growing out of the bigotries and hatreds that he was taught by a society that was actively pushing it for their own ends.

So I'm not really interested in arguing this further, because you don't seem to really understand the subject matter enough to have that discussion. And I don't really appreciate someone swearing at me, either.

[honest_psycho]

'Character gains confidence and a voice of leadership of their own' is actually a really common character arc. Most likely because it's a thing a lot of people who become leaders actually go through in real life. Wuk Lamat's use of it is I think pretty strong and very clearly pronounced, it's a heightened and kinda fantastical version of something I've seen people go through personally, including myself. You're allowed to not like it, but the fact you don't seem to recognize it on a base level suggests you might not be reading the story especially well. That would be like not recognizing Estinien as having a character arc of growing out of the bigotries and hatreds that he was taught by a society that was actively pushing it for their own ends.

...because you don't seem to really understand the subject matter enough to have that discussion.

Another paragraph of explainations that have nothing to do with the main issue, side stepping it with an 'Estinien was a bigot somehow', trying to bait another irelevant discussion, and ending it with another insult.
And then you have the audacity to acuse ME of being mean.

YOU started calling people iliterate, I'm just returning the favour in kind.

[QT_Melon]

Honestly, underwhelmed and annoyed with Dawntrail's MSQ.

I am not upset that there's still same game designs from previous XPacs - quest types like fetch quests, stalker quests, examine quests... That's always gonna be there.

And speaking of game types, it was wasted that one type they introduced in the FF16 event wasn't reintroduced again in MSQ.

I think there was too much dialog and less player agency in terms of going through the MSQ. I don't mind not being the forefront. That's not been us for many expansions. I mean there's a reason *Sage Nod* and *Punch fist in hand* are memes. However, there's a problem if people are stating SIDE quests have more meaningful engagement than MSQ I'm not saying it should be the other way around. I'm saying MSQ is cake. Side Quests should be frosting - accent what's baked well. Baked well...MSQ was not.

What everyone talked about and what I was more hyped for was the promise of a BEACH episode. I am not expecting it to be a full RP session but the lack of real fun BEACH moments in our vacation actually annoyed me. I don't exactly mean a literal BEACH but I felt more moments of genuine relaxation in the springs of Kugane hotel than here. I would have had a blast seeing cutscenes of fluff where you say get a dialog choice of putting on swimwear and trying them out and getting a small cutscene of us in that outfit doing vacationy things. Ie like the WoL could wear the skimpiest outfit or go the route of "nope just stating in what I have" just for hilarity. Stuff like that.

Then...there's the lack of SNARK or genuinely funny dialog moments. We had more fun in ShB than in Dawntrail when it came to sass.

As far as Wuk Lamat. Was she overpresent. Yeah I agree. VA in this needed much better coaching, it was slightly above ARR corny dialog or scenes not read correctly

For example:

People talking about Wuk jumping in at end trial.... Let me give you one that really got on my nerves.

Sphene. That endgame dungeon sounded like a mom wishing her kids well, and then when chaos ensues....she comes off like sounding like mom rushing you home cuz dinner is ready. It was grating and it didn't feel like a really bad war. I was just like...what is this? Dead Ends had more meaningful and impactful things going on...and they were still using chat bubble dialog "I destroyed them ALL!....I ...destroyed them all...."

As far as Wuk's characterization, yeah needed a better growth cycle and less repeats of certain gags. However, oddly enough she didn't get on my nerves as much as Stormblood's Hien did. Now that guy... I was so looking forward to him and then I felt like "f' that dude" later on.

If Dawntrail didn't have to keep the same story formula from other successful story arcs

As soon as out of nowhere Unique character design girl screaming FUTURE MOGSTATION GLAMOUR came out got all I needed to know out of the story.

I would have liked to see other spins.

- cnt...

[QT_Melon]

- p2


I'm not upset over a "reset" but a reset doesn't mean going back to ARR's mistakes.

Other random thoughts:

Solution 9 and Sphene feels like analogies to ...mostly the US and our Carbon footprint, as well as AI. Sphene was so ridiculously repetitive because that's what her AI was...some idealized thing rather than something that can grow and create. Sure they scraped basically the original Sphene but it's like looking Midjourney with all the extra fingers hands and random hair. "For my People..." give her the magazine already...

I really hope there's more things to do in Solution 9's endgame zone looks so dang empty in that map and yes I know SAVAGE vendors will be there soon

[Denishia]

Just finished both expert optional dungeons and while I loved the first one that I did, the second one connected to the final zone

feels like a Kingdom Hearts crossover dungeon with knockoff branding. All for a variety of dungeon aesthetics and all, but it's a vibe I do not need any more of and reminds me of why I dislike the look and vibe of Living Memory. (Am I the only person who prefers the version when it's all shut down?) Alexandria was another where the concept is done to death with not just Amaurot/Dead Ends/Lunar Subterrane but Sigma Dreamscape. Mechanically they're innovating, at least. But I want to explore the living, present worlds and if get the past be it ruins, not facsimiles conjured by the antagonists. I have no love or attachment to Elpis or wish to be in the Unsundered World. Same goes for the Endless's obnoxious fake theme park for artificial ghosts.

[Cilia]

I don't dislike Wuk Lamat, but considering how many quests involve talking to her and how she's almost omnipresent (being absent only from the first half-ish of Shaaloani), while I may not have exact statistics it's impossible to deny that she hogs the spotlight. She's the main protagonist and that's fine, but Lyse was the main protagonist of Stormblood and while she had her share of screentime she didn't hog it - at least, not to the degree Wuk Lamat does.

It's also impossible to deny that the Warrior of Light only has a bit part; this may be a "new story arc," but nuggets of wisdom and martial indomitability notwithstanding, we may as well have been an NPC. At least Stormblood had our rivalry with Zenos to keep us invested, and even A Realm Reborn had us playing a bigger part.

[HyoMinPark]

So I'm not really interested in arguing this further, because you don't seem to really understand the subject matter enough to have that discussion. And I don't really appreciate someone swearing at me, either.

And some of us don’t appreciate you basically calling us dumb in the most roundabout way possible simply because we disagree with you about a character. Wuk Lamat is a Blackhole Sue. That is simply a fact if you look at the definition of what a Blackhole Sue is and apply it to her. And, last I checked, any variation of a Mary Sue =/= a good character.

The Black Hole Sue: Her gravity is so great, she draws all the attention and causes other characters (and, often, reality itself) to bend and contort in order to accommodate her. Characters don't act naturally around her. They instead serve as plot enablers for her, with dialogue that only acts as set-ups for her response. She dominates every scene she is in, with most scenes without her serving only to give the characters a chance to "talk freely" about her. Most people don't oppose her and anybody who does will either realize their fault in doing so or just prove easy to overcome.

- Wuk draws all attention to herself in just about every scene she’s in. There’s even several where she is outright blocking the WoL’s character model. Either with her body or her weapon.

- None of the characters act like themselves when she’s involved. The Scions and the WoL have all been lobotomized and re-programmed to explicitly only agree with her. We are never allowed to contest her through dialogue options. We can’t even pick the “…” stay silent option. We are all her Yesmen.
(I don’t count the single dialogue option we had with Gulool Ja Ja of “she’s not ready” because it’s not even to her. And, ultimately, he just says the Rite is a way to make her ready because she’s an awesome-sauce person who can do anything!! Because the writer said so. Not because she showed any growth or development on her own.)

- The only person who really opposes her is Zarool Ja, who was shoehorned into the villain role with very little build up after Bakool Ja Ja did a character turn-around so fast I actually got whiplash from it. Nothing wrong with his motives, but gods, there was NO build up for it. At all. It came off almost as a retcon of his character.



The Wuk Lamat defenders are as wild as the Zenos defenders that called for him to get a redemption arc post-Endwalker.