The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ

[Kiet]

Hi, excellent write up to start, I was pointed to you by a mutual friend of ours. I wanted to share something that personally bugged me. It has nothing to do with Wuk Lamat.

Towards the latter half of the Solution 9 arc, Erenville begins to realize that his mom is dead, and you can very clearly notice his behavior changing from that point up until the very last part of the last bit of Living Memory. If you talk to him between quests, he literally just sits there pacing back and fourth, only saying "..." because he knows he's going to have to come to terms with it. And that's where my problem is. Why did no one comfort him? He got like one offhand comment thrown his way, but where's the actual consolation? I lost a parent recently, so this part probably personally bugs me more than it should, but I felt so bad that I took a gpose of my character hugging him in some strange attempt to convince myself the WOL actually notices that their friend is grieving about their dead parent and that they actually care about him. It just felt so wrong and bizarre at the same time, and was easily the most infuriating thing about the entire expansion to me that made me feel downright awful, not just "this is boring".

This! My mother died quite recently so this hit me on a personal level. I felt like the WOL (and everyone else too, for that matter) was a complete failure as a friend for not trying to comfort him. It felt awful to not be able to do that.

[Tethan]

This! My mother died quite recently so this hit me on a personal level. I felt like the WOL (and everyone else too, for that matter) was a complete failure as a friend for not trying to comfort him. It felt awful to not be able to do that.

I've lost all my grandparents (several of them to dementia/alzheimer's so I have some thoughts on whether or not memory is what makes a person), I lost my dad to cancer a few years ago, a friend of mine passed away suddenly just a few months ago, he was around my age, left behind his wife and little son. I found the final zone deeply insulting, as an exploration of grief it was nonsensical and wholly inadequate. Grief is such a powerful, scary and sometimes ugly thing. It's not something you can just handwave away. Everything in the final zone just said "yeah it's sad but it's natural so get over it". Erenville was the only one who reacted somewhat naturally to what was going on, but it felt like the game wanted to dismiss or chide his reaction, rather than actually explore it and as soon as it's done he is just fine again? That's not how it works.

[Loggos]

Erenville was the only one who reacted somewhat naturally to what was going on, but it felt like the game wanted to dismiss or chide his reaction, rather than actually explore it and as soon as it's done he is just fine again? That's not how it works.

Thank you, I'm glad I'm not alone because it felt the same way to me.

I really didn't like how they treated Erenville in the last zone.

A lot of this also has to do with how they wrote Cahciua. Imo they overdid the "cheerful, cheeky freespirit who is right and the grumpy counterpart who is wrong" trope. I know the intention was that she/the game's narrative wanted to show how Erenville needs to get out of his shell more and not prevent himself from enjoying things/life. But the imminent death of his mother was really the worst time to do that.
It made Cahciua come off as selfish and self-centered, even though that’s not how I want to see her.

I know they love each other dearly but there were some hints that Cahciua wasn't always the best mother it seems. Such as her frequently going on adventures for prolonged periods of time and Erenville always crying when she left or her not telling him what his name means and he has to learn it from somebody else.

She felt like this kind of "can get away with anything, you just have to love them" character because she was deciding everything that was happening (in terms of their interaction) in that zone.
When during their final scene Erenville finally stood his ground and said exactly that, that she was deciding everything by herself and then just leaving him again (which indicates she regularly acts like this) I was happy because I thought finally his perspective gets some room. I didn't want them to fight or end on bad terms but I felt Erenville deserved to speak his mind. Then they could have made up. But when the story proceeded to treat him yet again as being (so obviously) wrong, I was really frustrated.

Throughout the whole zone Cahciua talked about her own dreams, how she wanted to see more of the world and so on. But at no point did she express that part of her dream also includes Erenville. Again I know she loves him but it just felt so jarring that the writers had her talk about herself all the time, what she wants and how that little adventure in the last zone made her happy, in front of her grieving son who literally told us he is being torn apart. It was peak insensitive. And she just went on and on about her stuff cheerfully. It felt so incredibly tone deaf.

Even worse, when she suggested to go on that little adventure and Erenville rightfully called her out how she couldn’t possibly ask him to do that, the story didn't follow along with his feelings. Instead it had Cahciua react like a mom whose moody teenage son is having a fit and she has to convince him to do something he normally likes. Erenville was framed exactly like said teenage son by standing there with arms crossed and saying "I suppose" after his mom asks him if he wouldn't like it if she bought him his favourite milkshake. There he is, opening up about how he just can't do this and the story is like "Come on, Erenville. You'll see this adventure is really good for you, you just don't really understand your own feelings like your mom does".

She does dictate everything in that moment even if the story wants to frame it as beneficial and Erenville as the one who "just doesn't get it". It has this patronising vibe of "yes your feelings are valid but if you just try it you'll see you like it! Don't be so dour, get out of your shell!"

So when they said their good-bye (which in itself was very touching and genuine) and the story had Erenville literally shout "Yes you are right mother!! I'll fulfill your dream!" with a very strong emotional subtext of "How could I be so blind? Of course you are right like you always are!" I just thought...but what about your dream, Erenville? And I get it, the implication is supposed to be that this is his true dream after all but the way they made him realise it by making it about Cahciua again, felt so diminishing of everything he felt and wanted prior to that moment.

I know this sounds like I hate Cahciua but I don't. Like I said, I know she loves him and I think it would have been really interesting if she was not a perfect mom. If they were family that cares deeply about each other despite their flaws and the story would have allowed this nuance to exist between them, resolving their tensions during her last moments.

But they wrote their relationship as totally one-sided, with Erenville as the one who literally doesn't get himself at all and needs his mom to tell him exactly where to go and what to do to figure out life ("go find the golden city/go to sharlayan", "go on this small adventure with me before I die", "go follow in my footsteps") and with Cahciua as the one who knows exactly what he needs, even when he thinks he doesn't, and whose plans always end up being just The Right Thing for him.

-----

Some thoughts about their first scene meeting in Living Memory because I don’t know where else to fit it:

I already disliked the beginning, when Erenville and Cahicua met for the first time "in flesh" again. For Cahciua it had been 30 years. For Erenville it was less but he came to the zone fully aware of his mother being dead.

The way Cahciua barely concerned herself with Erenville, let alone his emotional state, was staggering. They made her way too cheerful and had her focus almost exclusively on how to defeat Sphene, while she barely acknowledged the feelings of her son – whom she, again, hadn't seen in 30 years and who had just learned she was dead. Every concern of his was brushed off. This was even more annoying because before you go to the golden city, if you talk to Erenville, he’ll say that he wants to give her a piece of his mind after learning she’s dead. He never gets the chance to speak his mind though.
I would have expected at least a few earnest words of sadness, an awkward uncomfortable tension, some bittersweet expressions of how happy she is to see him again, or some heaviness/regret in her demeanor if she was trying to hide her true feelings behind a cheerful mask. But she seemed genuinely content. She controlled the emotional vibe of the whole encounter.

Especially annoying was that, when meeting Cahciua for the first time, they suddenly shifted the tone of the conversation and had Erenville do the "shaking my head/shrug" emote, which felt like they were having a casual conversation and he was just annoyed instead of him being full of deep, conflicting emotions upon seeing her. It felt so out of place.

And yeah, as some other people pointed out the rest of the group threw out some alibi “Oh Erenville”s but most of the time the issue wasn’t much of a concern for them either. So they just went through the zone, dragging Erenville and his inconvenient inner crisis along.

(Sorry, I know I'm yapping but Erenville was the only thing I even remotely cared about by the end of the MSQ so I have strong feelings on that whole storyline.)

[Tethan]

snip

Yes, I think you are hitting the nail on the head. Whatever support Erenville gets from the rest of the cast felt very token and stiff and the whole thing came off like the narrative itself was uncomfortable with its own implications and Erenville was a spoilsport for bringing it up. And I remember thinking "well, no wonder he's a bit withdrawn considering he apparently grew up around people with no interest in respecting his feelings or boundaries".

For much of the Dawntrail MSQ I found myself saying (jokingly) "shut up, Krile, no one cares!" But the final zone was very "shut up, Erenville, no one cares!"

[Loggos]

Yes, I think you are hitting the nail on the head. Whatever support Erenville gets from the rest of the cast felt very token and stiff and the whole thing came off like the narrative itself was uncomfortable with its own implications and Erenville was a spoilsport for bringing it up. And I remember thinking "well, no wonder he's a bit withdrawn considering he apparently grew up around people with no interest in respecting his feelings or boundaries".

For much of the Dawntrail MSQ I found myself saying (jokingly) "shut up, Krile, no one cares!" But the final zone was very "shut up, Erenville, no one cares!"

Yeah I completely agree. I think they wanted to use him as a narrative tool for some "sweet" tragedy and sad tear jerker moments but then realised that they are undermining their whole "they are not real" premise if they actually take his perspective seriously. After all, how can Erenville be right in his feelings regarding Cahciua, the endless, when it's not his "real" mother. So they solved it in a way that allows them to eat their cake and have it too: They have some big sad scenes to "spice up" their story (and give us "life lessons" about life and death) while also not having to actually feel bad for the endless, because Erenville is being "irrational" and is grieving somebody who is already gone. He needs to let go.
Like this they can have his sadness be right and wrong at the same time. Right because he is grieving somebody dying in the past, wrong because he is "projecting" (not really, but you know) that grief onto an illusion.

And yeah, I feel you re: the boundary crossing. To me it came across like that as well.

[Archaeothyris]

I really didn't like how they treated Erenville in the last zone.

From the start of Erenville finding out the truth about Cahciua, I had a bad feeling about it, and that bad feeling just got worse the longer the final zone went on. Nobody was comforting him or even checking up on him, nobody seemed to care at all and I didn't even get the dialogue choices to care. If anything, sometimes the characters would say something so outrageously rude that I had to get up from my chair and just walk around in my apartment to process what I just witnessed. An example:

After you come back down from the capybara ride (which honestly felt like a very private and emotional moment that Erenville and Cahciua should've just shared by themselves without the WoL because they haven't been able to connect 1-1 AT ALL for years), if you talk with the rest of the cast before continuing, here's what they have to say:

G'raha: "We'll be there for Erenville."
Me: Thank you G'raha, finally someone expresses any sympathy for this man. Better late than never.

Krile: "It will be hard, but let us send Cahciua off with a smile."
Me: Okay, perfectly reasonable thing for Krile to say.

Wuk Lamat: "We saw you from below. It looked like you were having fun."

I actually laughed when I saw that, I was so utterly flabbergasted. What do you mean it looked like we were having fun? The person who's supposed to be your childhood friend (which hasn't felt that way at all btw) is going through probably the worst times of his entire life right now. Not even once have you comforted him, checked up on him, or seemingly cared whatsoever about anything else but your weird obsession with Sphene who we met only a few hours ago. And now you say this? What part of your childhood friend's mental anguish when confronted with the reality that he must (essentially) kill his own mother looks fun?

How am I supposed to believe that she is a kind, sympathetic and wonderful person who wants to protect everyone and make sure everyone's happy, when she contradicts that supposed character so often?
Everyone acts as if Koana is the socially inept one, but he's the only person who goes to Gulool Ja Ja's side as he's dying on the floor. Meanwhile Wuk Lamat just stands there not doing anything when she sees her father dying, even though in other scenes she's seen screamcrying and begging for an already dead civilian to drink medicine, or repeatedly begging to help the Heritage Found hunter, or repeatedly begging to help Sphene. It feels almost deliberate, how she goes out of her way to ignore the people closest to her in favour of prioritizing literally everyone else.

Sorry, I got a bit off-track. I just still get mad as I'm typing this. It's all just so weird. I genuinely just hated the last zone aside from the part with Krile's parents and Erenville clapping back at Cahciua..

[njorun]

I have to be honest. I have intentionally not engaged with the forums here for years. I didn't really feel the need to, I was really happy with the game and I had no reason to throw my two cents in on the things I was unhappy with, because they were all pretty small, silly things.

Dawntrail has changed that. Which is to say...

150% to EVERYTHING here. I went into this expansion with such high hopes, like 'oh man it'll be awesome! Wuk Lamat seems like fun, what we've seen from the zones looks great, it'll be nice to just have a real beach episode sort of feel!' I don't think I have ever been this disappointed by a story before. And I played through WoW BfA and the prepatch leading into it. (RIP Teldrassil. I still think you deserved better.) But back to the topic at hand.

This story has so many handwaves in it I'm actually shocked that even the people who wrote it weren't a little embarrassed. It's genuinely heartbreaking, I tried so hard to give the story the benefit of the doubt. Every time I had criticisms, I was like 'oh, well it's just because I'm in a bad mood that I'm picking everything apart like this. It's not as bad as it seems.' It was, in fact, not that. That is what I think they call copium.

Honestly all of the major things that I have issues with people have already talked about. Though I have another example for this sort of handwaving 'don't think too hard on it' moments that are littered through this expansion. If there is a genuine explanation for it somewhere that I missed, please tell me.

So we learn pretty early on that attacking an elector without their consent will get you disqualified. That's all well and good. Zoraal Ja gets disqualified for attacking the elector in Mamook. Fantastic. As you'd expect he would.

Bakool Ja Ja kidnaps an elector and he doesn't get disqualified. Sure, he runs off the second that fight is over before he could be, but... really? We were told that even attacking one will set off some string of people who would tell Gulool Ja Ja that you're disqualified. And nothing about kidnapping and threatening to have your lackeys kill one. I dunno, it's bugged me since it happened.

Also, I absolutely agree with everyone saying Erenville was done dirty in the final zones. While I wouldn't try and say the pain is anywhere comparable, seeing as though both my parents are still alive, I lost my childhood dog a few weeks before Dawntrail released. He had a vet appointment, and we were told he needed to be put to sleep right then and there. I didn't even get a chance for a real goodbye. That was genuinely the worst day of my life. I had a lot of complicated feelings about it and I'm not sure I'll ever really get over them fully, if I'm being a little too honest. The fact that you don't even get a single chance to speak with Erenville and offer him even a moment of 'you're not alone, and you're not in the wrong for whatever you're feeling right now' just felt horrible.

[GreenLeafy]

How am I supposed to believe that she is a kind, sympathetic and wonderful person who wants to protect everyone and make sure everyone's happy, when she contradicts that supposed character so often?
Everyone acts as if Koana is the socially inept one, but he's the only person who goes to Gulool Ja Ja's side as he's dying on the floor. Meanwhile Wuk Lamat just stands there not doing anything when she sees her father dying, even though in other scenes she's seen screamcrying and begging for an already dead civilian to drink medicine, or repeatedly begging to help the Heritage Found hunter, or repeatedly begging to help Sphene. It feels almost deliberate, how she goes out of her way to ignore the people closest to her in favour of prioritizing literally everyone else.

This. Oh my god this so so so so much.
I feel absolutely genuinely terrible about any character in the story who is shown as "close" to her because she treats them like absolute fodder. You pointed out the issues with Erenville so I gotta point out the issues I had with Koana. The entire part since the kidnapping until her succession was absolutely driving me incredibly insane and just pushed me to find her genuinely fully insufferable as it went on. Koana panics that his sister is in trouble and loses his temper to find her which barely gets acknowledged. Afterwards when Valigarmanda is unleashed we have to sit there and watch her say to us and the twins how she's so happy to know that she has someone that has her back after she asks us to help her with the fight. Meanwhile Koana is right there listening to this. After telling us he dedicated his life for her to not feel alone because he knows the pain of it. But anything he does for her just doesn't matter I guess.
Later he fully gives away his claim to the throne and all of his aspirations just to help her and after the fight him saying how he knows that she's the better ruler because she's so nice to everyone and her response is,wow thanks big bro!
She neglects his feelings so much so the dude literally comes to your quarters to tell you that he's upset that she genuinely doesn't acknowledge anything he does but sings you praises constantly because you're just the shiny new toy in her found family.
And THEN she has the gall at the ceremony to say hey lets rule together - not because I appreciate you but because I know I'm the brawn and you can be the brains.

I genuinely felt bad walking away to Fantasy Texas and seeing him stuck there with her in the throne room because she just could not care less about the person he really is. I wish he could've just joined us for the 2nd half of the story and she can sit there and deal with the reality of ruling herself without us babying her throughout the entire thing whilst Koana gets more character progression with facing how tech advancement can also go poorly as several people pointed out in this thread.

[Archaeothyris]

(snip)

Completely agreed, I feel so bad for him!

In general, I have an issue with how people treat Koana in this story because the whole time we're being banged on the head with "we should accept people for who they are", "we have to try to understand their side of the story", "we shouldn't be out here telling other cultures what to do". Meanwhile literally everyone and their grandmother is yapping at Koana about how he has to change his personality in order to be likeable and for people to be able to connect with him. Like bro, he doesn't have a disease that you need to cure, the man's an introvert!!!

Now I would understand this angle if Koana was shown to be cold, uncaring and genuinely difficult to connect with, but it is so clear to anyone with eyes that he expresses love in his own way even though he is more reserved about it. There clearly are people throughout the story who love him for who he is and were able to connect with him, too. Yet another demonizing introverts in media moment, yippee.

Like, what happened to accepting and loving people as they are? Same with Erenville. As an introvert myself, it genuinely pissed me off. And as if Wuk Lamat saying that bs wasn't enough, Thancred and Urianger have a talk with Koana about that as well?? You'd think THOSE TWO of all people would understand the subtlety of reserved people and how they express their love to those they care about. And then when he expresses his emotions more strongly as was the advice from people around him, it's made into a joke and everyone laughs at him? WHAT?!!??!!?

[zookalicious]

I can't express enough how disappointing the writing in this expansion was compared to previous expansions. Agree with EVERYTHING op wrote.