Finished the MSQ - Feels bad, pushed to do evil [Spoilers inside]

[Eyrilona]

actually almost every scene with us discussing the future of her people was us literally going *there is another way* sphene herself decided death was the only option not us.

I would dispute this. We never offered anything nor revealed our hand that we actually had the means to make it work, all we had was a Wuk Lamat screaming ad nauseam that another way had to be possible if only we believed in the power of wishful thinking. I believe that Sphene would have actually listened if we'd talked about practical technological solutions to her problems that would give her everything she wanted at a much lower cost.

But even if Sphene would never have agreed, I do not recall us having to murder our friends Estinien and Aymeric and all the citizens of Ishgard in order to get to the archbishop. It's almost as if we were able to take out an individual uncooperative leader without committing genocide on their entire people.

Our choice to just go for erasing the Endless was minimal effort, uncaring laziness on our part. (And forcing us into it, was minimal effort, uncaring laziness on the part of the writing team).

[Loggos]

This is honestly my hope for the patches: That we shut down the system, but that the storage devices still hold the memories, and we can help them have another shot at an actual life outside of the Living Memory system. Bring in Garlean cloning to create FFIX Genomes if we must.

I would really like that because technically we didn't wipe any of that data storage, did we? So in theory they can be revived at any point if we solve that problem later.
Though I don't think the writers would do it unfortunately. If we brought the very people back to life they spent a fair amount of time telling us are just facsimiles and should not exist after their natural death, then they'd immediately undermine their whole message of "moving on, letting go, it's only natural". It would be like an admission of how wrong they were just one/a few patches ago.

[pedromvilar]

This is honestly my hope for the patches: That we shut down the system, but that the storage devices still hold the memories, and we can help them have another shot at an actual life outside of the Living Memory system. Bring in Garlean cloning to create FFIX Genomes if we must.

I also hope for that, but at the same time that'd only somewhat help with the issue. It'd solve the part where we actually did a genocide (which, from an in-universe morality standpoint, is of course the most important part) but it wouldn't solve the part where we were willing to do it in the first place without questioning it and without feeling wretched about doing it (which is the most important part when it comes to this as a fictional story). That part is unfortunately set in stone unless they want to actually change the past story and that's the part that makes me sickest.

[Tsumdere]

Do you know what sucks about all of this?
Wouldn't it be great if this intricate, philosophical discussion we're having in the forums had happened ingame?
Maybe if some highly intelligent scholars were there to offer different views and discuss a plan or the meaning of their existence, facing our previous knowledge and experiences, and this was exposed through msq
I find the themes that are supposedly tackled in this narrative to be more openly discussed in the forums than in the game. Great story

That's also one of the major issues I have with DT.

They offer this philosophical dilemma and just DON'T do anything with it. There is no time to think about it or interact with other characters who aren't immediately in the "yeah, sounds good kill them" camp. We get a ton of time in the EW base MSQ to consider the questions posed by Venat and Hermes and get a total of maybe one hour for the Endless.

It feels like extremely juvenile writing where they heard a deep question from someone else and wrote about it without thinking for themselves.

[Eyrilona]

This is honestly my hope for the patches: That we shut down the system, but that the storage devices still hold the memories, and we can help them have another shot at an actual life outside of the Living Memory system. Bring in Garlean cloning to create FFIX Genomes if we must.

I will hope this together with you. Yet, even if they do salvage thing that way, that will be months away. Leaving a lot of players feeling down about this would still be a choice of narrative delivery deserving of criticism.

[Loggos]

That's also one of the major issues I have with DT.

They offer this philosophical dilemma and just DON'T do anything with it. There is no time to think about it or interact with other characters who aren't immediately in the "yeah, sounds good kill them" camp. We get a ton of time in the EW base MSQ to consider the questions posed by Venat and Hermes and get a total of maybe one hour for the Endless.

It feels like extremely juvenile writing where they heard a deep question from someone else and wrote about it without thinking for themselves.

This expac honestly gave me the feeling that they were desperately trying to be philosophical for philosophy's sake. That they thought "we need to make some deep comments about the meaning of life and death to be relevant". But that also meant they are not really committed to it. It was a "chore" or a means to an end, leading to them never really understanding and exploring their own message with honestly. I really get the impression they just stiched together some platitudes that "seem deep" at first glance if you don't give it much thought, and believed that made it profound.

I wish they understood that you don't always need to tackle big philosophical questions to tell a good story. Often it's the characters themselves that make a story good. If you have psychologically convincing people with relatable problems and relationships it will often feel "deeper" and more real than forcefully trying to recite Philosophy 101.

Despite their whole "I must move on" shtick the last scene with Erenville and his mom felt a lot more touching than pretty much anything else in DT. Their feelings and relationship in that moment were believable. Yes, the reason that she "had to move on" is questionable but the sadness itself created a convincing moment, so despite the silly context you still connected with them and felt meaningful emotions of grief were conveyed.

[Bunyon]

I just hope that we can restore the zone later on (even if it's an on/off switch that can be optional for those who want it). If they keep it dead forever over stubbornness of "but you gotta let gooo that was the point of the story", then I feel like it's a disservice to the game as an MMO, not even considering how the story reactions are clearly mixed.

[Loggos]

Do you know what sucks about all of this?
Wouldn't it be great if this intricate, philosophical discussion we're having in the forums had happened ingame?
Maybe if some highly intelligent scholars were there to offer different views and discuss a plan or the meaning of their existence, facing our previous knowledge and experiences, and this was exposed through msq
I find the themes that are supposedly tackled in this narrative to be more openly discussed in the forums than in the game. Great story

In addition to a better discussion you also have many people who are very invested and well-versed in the lore, so a lot more people will remember potential solutions from past storylines. I don't know how intrinsically interested in the lore the writers are. If there are not enough people who have a very good understanding of all the details of their world-building and magical concepts, who can catch inconsistencies, then I guess a lot can fall through the cracks.
I'd be really interested to know who's involved in their proof-reading and revision processes.

I feel like the DT authors lean towards being the type of writers, who want to paint a colourful picture of their vision and put their chosen "theme" above everything else even if it clashes with established lore (and if it clashes they'd rather change the lore than their theme). As opposed to lore enthusiasts who are deeply committed to telling an accurate story even if it means adjusting an initial vision if it contradicts the world building or can't be written around in a clever and convincing way.

[Shialan]

This is true, and I agree this was her plan. But the Scions are an element that can alter the plan, that's the frustrating part.

But she did not want that. She wanted to help her people RIGHT THEN RIGHT THERE.

How does almost no one understand this? Did it look to you that she was willing to listen to the WoL about some maybes?

[Sephi_Ravour]

They absolutely had to be stopped- it was a "us or them" situation, and killing them all to save the Source is justified.
The problem is how this is presented ingame, and you actually touch on the dissonance yourself with your post.
These entities are shown to be sapient and feeling and creative. They do things spontaneously, they love, they have regrets and dreams, they're very much self-aware. You explore this in the quests in the area and the game seems to be showing me that while the circumstances of their creation and the medium that holds their minds/selves is different from mine, they are capable of thought and feeling all the same.
It's therefore tragic that their survival requires my death. I wanted to see more conflict about this, more despair, more vainly trying to attempt ten things to avoid this outcome before finally bringing the axe over their napes down. I wanted to see the WoL and the scions feeling conflicted and heartbroken over this- and maybe this is a thread that can be followed up on in later patches. In that moment, the WoL could maybe really feel like they were wearing Emet's skin, and understand the gravity of the action. But this is merely brushed aside.

This is right on point. The main problem isn't that we deleted every Endless, but that we didn't even try to find a solution where both worlds can coexist. If we had tried every reasonable approach and nothing worked, it would be still sad, but a more reasonable thing to do. But no, only option was to delete everyone! Not just switching it offline, to come back later.

The game tries to tell us that's okay, because they are only facsimilies restored from the memories of the death. But right next to us stands G'raha Tia who is basically restored memory backup of the Crystal Exarch...
All the sundered Ascians where restored from memory crystals, were they also not alive?

The whole thing could have worked out, if more MSQ time was spent on this part and less on babysitting Wuk Lamat. When we had to kill Emet-Selch and Elidbus in Shadowbringers it too felt sad, but we understood what was at stake and that there was no other option, because we had enough build up before the final showdown. This build up is missing here.


Christ, this whole things makes me more upset than it has any right to be.