Dawntrail's mediatour dungeon was already cleared without healers.

[Boblawblah]

I'm seeing two separate complaints in this thread, first that Warrior has too much self-healing, which can lead to them being able to clear content without a healer, and two, the healing role is useless. Both can be true I suppose, but would situations like this be common/possible with a DRK? If not, then healers have nothing to do with this specific situation. It sounds like nerfing WAR healing would be the first step, IF SE really thinks this is an issue.

just imo though, I'm not a healer or WAR player, I just know that so far, I don't feel I can clear dungeons without a healer on my DRK so far, maybe things instantly change at 90 though, but I get the feeling WAR's are unique in their insane healing.

[Tint]

I'm seeing two separate complaints in this thread, first that Warrior has too much self-healing, which can lead to them being able to clear content without a healer, and two, the healing role is useless. Both can be true I suppose, but would situations like this be common/possible with a DRK? If not, then healers have nothing to do with this specific situation. It sounds like nerfing WAR healing would be the first step, IF SE really thinks this is an issue.

just imo though, I'm not a healer or WAR player, I just know that so far, I don't feel I can clear dungeons without a healer on my DRK so far, maybe things instantly change at 90 though, but I get the feeling WAR's are unique in their insane healing.

PLD can clear without a healer as well. Not sure about DRK and GNB.

What you also have to consider is that when you swap out a healer for a 3rd DD things will die faster and less healing is needed overall. So even when you can't clear with 1 tank, 2 DDs and a dead healer you probably can with 1 tank and 3 DDs.

[Sunhwapark]

Well, at least this means I can likely continue to use war to solo the lvl 100 treasure maps when they come out.

[Supersnow845]

PLD can solo if WAR can solo, the extra DPS from a third DPS would make it really easy for GNB to as well especially with great Aurora. DRK would be fine in the pack with shadow wall but would be bad for the other half (though not impossible)

The other problem is the fact that tanks at this point are also playing off healers in raid content, shake it off is stronger than any single healer heal in the game and is completely free, divine veil while not as strong is still basically almost twice the potency of succor and then their shareable mits are basically benedictions on the party member they share them with

WAR is uniquely busted in dungeons but all tanks have the problem of the fact that they do too much of the raids total healing and support as well, especially given that in an average savage fight the tank is doing more of their own single target healing than the healer themself is doing

The problem is the short mits, they all need to be nerfed (TBN is fine), the healer role is basically just the innocent victim in this problem and is made especially worse given the healer role is uniquely boring when it doesn’t need to heal

[Katish]

PLD can clear without a healer as well. Not sure about DRK and GNB.

What you also have to consider is that when you swap out a healer for a 3rd DD things will die faster and less healing is needed overall. So even when you can't clear with 1 tank, 2 DDs and a dead healer you probably can with 1 tank and 3 DDs.

GnB can, dk can too with potions (although it is much harder in my own experience, and you have to rely on the dps healing themselves...[which takes specific dps]. This will change come DT in terms of DK's survivability...for what good that brings for the healer, nothing. But at least they can't heal the party.)

[Daralii]

1) THIS IS NOT A FINAL BUILD.

This is the media tour, do you not pay attention to the disclaimers that state 'things are subject to change'? How many times have we seen numbers and even complete skill changes before actual release? Many times. You cannot base the actual game on what you see at the media tour. It is a sample. Not the real thing. Just because it seemed 'easy' there, doesn't mean it will in the actual game.

Balance changes rarely if ever happen between the media tour and when savage unlocks, and actual design changes take months or even years. Player skill is the only variable, and at this point is really only visible in low-end content by people refusing to use half their keybinds.

[Rithy255]

I think a few ways to Mitigate "no healer runs" would be needed, I'm actually fine with the idea of no healer runs, imagine bringing and PLD & RDM for a silly no healer run, but the idea is it shouldn't me optimal, like bringing two tanks, or two healers ect.

1. Reduce Sustain PLD Should have no healing off magic attacks, In exchange give it a ogcd Proc for clemency once per minute, This lowers down PLD's self sustain a lot, GNB Should mainly have potencies lowered as Great Nebula acts as another heal ontop of its regen and excog, Drk I think can stay the same (although needs testing), Warrior needs to be giga nerfed in sustain, bloodwhetting should no longer be per enemy, 40% Shouldn't grant a regen (just do literally anything else), Equilibrium should not grant a regen, Shake it off should be swapped out for something else it doesn't even fit that warrior is healing the group more then a PLD.

2. Reduce Defensive value, baseline most importantly Mitigation cycling should be very important to tank gameplay even in single target, these high potency mitigations would be fine if tanks took a lot of damage for autos or had just generally less inbuilt defense, while this sounds odd to reduce, I think it will lead to more fun tank gameplay if you actually feel under pressure to use mitigations.

3. More Aoe damage More Aoe damage, even in pulls such as enemies casting doing a AOE Damage attack (I remember dragons shouting and doing this in a 50 dungeon), but also for bosses I feel as if having more raid wides is very important, theirs clearly not enough incoming damage when a DPS can sustain themselves aslong as a tank is able to (and you can i did one of the recent ew final bosses, where a healer wiped as a Ninja with a dark knight as my tank), You could also have mechs that target DPS more often, this would help both healer and tank have more use for their support abilities.

I don't think it's a simple matter of "lets just remove all tank healing lol" I think that would be a potentially bad and lazy change, I think if you instead Nerfed both mitigations and sustain while also increasing the amount of incoming damage, That would be the key to making healers more required again.

[rawker]

Turning Clemency to an oGCD action is just free healing and is very unrewarding. It being a GCD offers a choice for you to sacrificre a GCD to heal. I am against robbing PLD the only element of choice it has. Though I agree with removing all healing from their spells to compensate for letting Clemency as it is.

[Rithy255]

Turning Clemency to an oGCD action is just free healing and is very unrewarding. It being a GCD offers a choice for you to sacrificre a GCD to heal. I am against robbing PLD the only element of choice it has. Though I agree with removing all healing from their spells to compensate for letting Clemency as it is.

Why I suggested making it OGCD once per minute, which doesn't take away it's choice if you need to spam it.
I'm actually a fan of how clemency works, but I'd also want some general use cases, but I'm not saying you have to agree with me here, It's a good enough tool in it's own right, I just wish it had more uses outside of "press when emergency"

I also wanna make it clear It's only if they removed magic self healing, because currently that's around 3200 Potency per minute; with a exchange of it being turnt into 1000 Potency per minute which would be a big loss either way, It would but it more on par with current gunbreakers self healing (before they add great nebula).

I do think if any tank should be about healing allies it should be PLD but this needs to be managed very carefully.

[Aravell]

I'm seeing two separate complaints in this thread, first that Warrior has too much self-healing, which can lead to them being able to clear content without a healer, and two, the healing role is useless. Both can be true I suppose, but would situations like this be common/possible with a DRK? If not, then healers have nothing to do with this specific situation. It sounds like nerfing WAR healing would be the first step, IF SE really thinks this is an issue.

just imo though, I'm not a healer or WAR player, I just know that so far, I don't feel I can clear dungeons without a healer on my DRK so far, maybe things instantly change at 90 though, but I get the feeling WAR's are unique in their insane healing.

You can still do 1 tank 3 DPS clears with DRK. It's a bit more iffy and you have to time your Abyssal Drains for maximum effect, but it can be done, although the DRK may die if they misplay.

It's just a thousand times easier to do it on WAR.