Yay, i get to play my job with no changes for another 2+ years...

[Aravell]

Warrior had nothing to bring to the table to protect others.

Are you seriously saying that the tank that could bring a permanent 10% damage down on the opponent brings nothing to protect the team?

[Rithy255]

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I'm not saying It should go back to stormblood, More of a Shadowbringers with some more spice would strike the perfect balance for me where jobs still felt pretty different enough, I'm not really the biggest fan of current tank stances, but that's more because tanks didn't really get much to replace it and less I think Stormblood stances were good, infact tanks got dumbed down more and more and now are just slow boring dps that all feel samey.

In the end of the day I think the argument of gatekeeping makes sense, but EW was terrible for that during 6.2, when everyjob plays the same you might aswell bring the Job that's able to slightly do more damage, you can never fully 100% avoid gatekeepers, trying to balance out the very soul of Jobs for the sake of gate keeping does come at a hefty price of Enjoyment which I think FF14's current EW design just plays it so safe that theirs no real point of actually caring about your Job when it's so similar to every other job, I think it's a balancing act, which again I think if we were back to something like shadowbringers but more risky (aka a inbetween point of SB-SHB) then we could strike a balance that actually pleases the most amount of people.

I'll be honest I'm in the camp of I rather have more fun and Intresting Jobs then more balanced jobs with less gatekeeping, but I can really understand that theirs a point where if Job design becomes too wacky that a hard meta can form and people will get gatekept more often then not for following that meta. I'm with you at least I think they need to strike a balance between intresting job design but also it's not at a point where gatekeeping is common

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Imagine if healers actually had to sometimes GCD heal so Jobs like PLD, DNC ect. Could actually save gcds and help healers I'd like that but we know that's not going to happen... I just wish it was more team work based, like big pulls for example should be a healer and tank effort not just one tank being able to solo a massive pull because aoe healing... But that's current ff14.

Also yeah Warriors identity just seems really weird, it's funny how it heals the team more then a paladin does, it feels so weird to me, I get nascent flash to a extent (personally i think war should only be able to mit for other party members), but shake it off is so odd, confused why they of all tanks are the "healer tank" personally I feel like a enemy intimidation (like a stronger reprisal) would make way more sense.

[Jeeqbit]

Are you seriously saying that the tank that could bring a permanent 10% damage down on the opponent brings nothing to protect the team?

That was PLD (STR Down) and DRK (INT Down). WAR's was increasing the damage output of the party, not increasing party mitigation. Regardless, these were damage type-specific and usually a DPS loss to use.

[Aravell]

That was PLD (STR Down) and DRK (INT Down). WAR's was increasing the damage output of the party, not increasing party mitigation. Regardless, these were damage type-specific and usually a DPS loss to use.

Storm's Path was a 10% all damage down until they changed it to give gauge. So all of HW.

When it was changed to give gauge, WAR got Shake it Off to compensate.

[Amenara]

I am just gonna wait on someone to leak all the DT job abilities like in EW or for the media tour NDA to be lifted to be worried about a 3rd expansion of ShB job design.

[Gemina]

I'll be honest I'm in the camp of I rather have more fun and Intresting Jobs then more balanced jobs with less gatekeeping, but I can really understand that theirs a point where if Job design becomes too wacky that a hard meta can form and people will get gatekept more often then not for following that meta. I'm with you at least I think they need to strike a balance between intresting job design but also it's not at a point where gatekeeping is common

We are in complete agreement, but therein lies the dilemma. This balance does require a certain developmental standpoint from the dev team, but it also requires for players to let go of the meta, which they will never do. There are a lot of players who are obsessed with optimization and I am not sure when players will realize how harmful this mindset can be. The current state of the game is a direct result of it, but they are all so quick to point the finger at the dev team. That does not absolve the devs from the accountability. I'm just pointing out that this is a two-way street and the players are also at fault here. A game is supposed to be challenging, but it is also supposed to be fun.

EW is a double down of ShB. Even if I am to be understanding that making a choice in the direction of game design is especially difficult, I can think of a lot more good things that were taken away from Stormblood than I can think of good things that were added in EW. Easily. EW took things too far in this direction without question. This is where I definitely fault the dev team and Yoshi. The last couple of years has made me grow to hate inclusivity as much as exclusivity. Again, both are opposing extremes that are not healthy for the game or society in general. Balance will only be achieved when the playerbase and the dev team can work with each other instead of against one another. Because we are not there, I would expect more disappointment come Dawntrail from both sides.

[ty_taurus]

You've been around a long time, according to your forum date? Back in Heavensward, there was a problem with Warrior and Dark Knight, which is they had no utility/party support compared to Paladin. This problem started to be addressed in Stormblood, where Reprisal became a Role Action and Blackest Night was added to Dark Knight so they could protect others.

But that wasn't enough. Warrior had nothing to bring to the table to protect others. It was selfish. In a patch, they transformed Shake It Off into a raid-wide mitigation that could be used to protect others. I was happy they found a way to build upon that in Shadowbringers with Nascent Flash. It was a unique way to go about it, dealing damage to heal others. Different from Paladin. Dare I say, unique and built upon its Bloodbath ability it once had.

(It is unfortunate that they gave Bloodbath away to all the DPS and wrecked that uniqueness, although I find it useful when playing DPS when I get tanks that don't know how to tank.)

Not the point I was trying to make.

From a thematic standpoint, I don’t understand why Warrior, or really any tank except for Paladin, has party sustain utility. That’s not something I’d attribute to any of the other three tanks, or at least not in the sense of having party healing and barriers.

What would make more sense for warrior would be inflicting a damage dealt down debuff to enemies, or at most a party wide bloodbath.

[Aravell]

This balance does require a certain developmental standpoint from the dev team, but it also requires for players to let go of the meta, which they will never do. There are a lot of players who are obsessed with optimization and I am not sure when players will realize how harmful this mindset can be. The current state of the game is a direct result of it, but they are all so quick to point the finger at the dev team. That does not absolve the devs from the accountability. I'm just pointing out that this is a two-way street and the players are also at fault here. A game is supposed to be challenging, but it is also supposed to be fun.

I think people need to stop blaming "the meta" for everything. Even in the current state of the game where everything is more or less balanced and every job is completely viable, there still exists a meta, and there will forever be a meta as long as job differences (however minor) exists.

The dev team should really be focused on making jobs that are fun to play with a coherent kit and room to improve while being less concerned about what meta the players are creating. After all, it's no longer HW where the BRD will leave the party if you don't lock in DRG, there's no hyper dependencies anymore.

Of course, if someone decides to join an optimisation party and complain that they have to play a job favoured by the meta, I think it's safe to ignore that kind of complaint.

[Mosha]

Also yeah Warriors identity just seems really weird, it's funny how it heals the team more then a paladin does, it feels so weird to me, I get nascent flash to a extent (personally i think war should only be able to mit for other party members), but shake it off is so odd, confused why they of all tanks are the "healer tank" personally I feel like a enemy intimidation (like a stronger reprisal) would make way more sense.

I've always likened its self-healing to a boxer getting the crap punched out of them and then going back to their corner spitting blood, shaking the head and going back out for the next round. How the game works it just means Warrior can restore its own HP, it's an abstraction of the will to carry on if that makes sense?

[Absurdity]

I've always likened its self-healing to a boxer getting the crap punched out of them and then going back to their corner spitting blood, shaking the head and going back out for the next round. How the game works it just means Warrior can restore its own HP, it's an abstraction of the will to carry on if that makes sense?

It's certainly one of the ways to implement that concept as a gameplay mechanic, I just don't think it's the best for a berserker (which is basically what Warrior is).

In a world of more interesting job design I would like to see it replaced with a stagger mechanic, turning a major portion of damage taken into a damage over time effect instead.
The idea being that when the berserker (or in this case Warrior) works themselves into a battle frenzy they become numb to their injuries until their body eventually just breaks down.
Cooldowns could then either reduce the incoming damage, therefore reducing the DoT damage, or reduce the DoT after damage has been taken to make it survivable.

Granted this idea comes with some potential balance issues.