New Shatter map... something Feels off.

[Valence]

Then don't return and let me queue with my casual friends (that also get deleted by premades btw).

[OliviaLugria]

Then don't return and let me queue with my casual friends (that also get deleted by premades btw).

If one of yall is willing to have a salted earth timer and a "I'm attacking now" macro you could start putting a pretty nice dent into them. (You can always look up my guide to >.<)

As for what Mawlzy said... I don't think it should be surprising that a group that wants to win consistently does in a gamemode where many don't care. I'd rather more players improve and adopt a winning mindset for a competitive game mode than breaking up the people who probably enjoy/know the most about the mode.

[Archeron]

If one of yall is willing to have a salted earth timer and a "I'm attacking now" macro you could start putting a pretty nice dent into them. (You can always look up my guide to >.<)

As for what Mawlzy said... I don't think it should be surprising that a group that wants to win consistently does in a gamemode where many don't care. I'd rather more players improve and adopt a winning mindset for a competitive game mode than breaking up the people who probably enjoy/know the most about the mode.

Not everyone wants to make a premade just to have a chance at winning in a game mode which you unfairly skew in your favor every single time you queue with your premade group. You make the game mode actively less fun for the other 2/3 of the people who are in your match. You can make those macros as much as you like, random PvE normies still aren't going to help AoE on your salted earth, and you'll probably just get stunlocked and murdered repeatedly as a result, and your coordinated premade is just going to slaughter them anyway regardless of if there are DRK's using macros on your team or not.

[OliviaLugria]

Not everyone wants to make a premade just to have a chance at winning in a game mode which you unfairly skew in your favor every single time you queue with your premade group. You make the game mode actively less fun for the other 2/3 of the people who are in your match. You can make those macros as much as you like, random PvE normies still aren't going to help AoE on your salted earth, and you'll probably just get stunlocked and murdered repeatedly as a result, and your coordinated premade is just going to slaughter them anyway regardless of if there are DRK's using macros on your team or not.

If you're not doing everything in your power to win, then I don't really see why you should complain about the result. I don't exactly see what's "unfair" about it. Everyone has access to the same jobs and can use the same strategies. Information on comps, burst, counter-play, and map strategy is available online. I also don't really see your point in ensuring my enemies have fun... Is there some other pvp game where this is encouraged? Finally, there are plethora of "PVE normies" that will follow and very much appreciate you telling them your burst is ready and it's time to attack. I know that from experience. You might not get everyone, but this small amount of communication can start making a big impact on your matches.

[Aravell]

I also don't really see your point in ensuring my enemies have fun... Is there some other pvp game where this is encouraged?

I've seen quite a few people say that we have to think about how it affects the opponents, it never makes sense to me.

In a PvP game, your only obligation is to win for your team, I've never played a single PvP game where we have to go out of our way to make the game a fun experience for our opponents. What if they only have fun if they win? Are we meant to throw the game? It's ridiculous.

[Mawlzy]

I've seen quite a few people say that we have to think about how it affects the opponents, it never makes sense to me.

In a PvP game, your only obligation is to win for your team, I've never played a single PvP game where we have to go out of our way to make the game a fun experience for our opponents. What if they only have fun if they win? Are we meant to throw the game? It's ridiculous.

I have more fun playing against Olivia than with her. The central issue is fairness. I understand why someone would exploit mixed queueing. You're absolutely right that the object of the exercise is to win, so given the effectiveness of a voice-coordinated premade, people are going to run them. (Until they graduate college and real life intervenes.) But premades lead to dull games and cement the couldn't-care-less attitudes of far too many players in FL. Something I think everyone who cares about the mode would like to reduce.

Note also the presence of premades greatly complicates the balancing issues that SE is not always great at addressing. By mixing queues, they have to balance jobs for both solo players and 4-person, highly-coordinated statics. The endless complaints about DRK, for example, evaporate if they are not stacked in a premade.

FWIW when I do have the misfortune to find myself on Olivia's team, I dutifully follow her orders (technically now just her "D" since I had to blacklist her for chat spamming). I prefer winning to losing and would never attempt to sabotage a match, since that impacts the rest of the players on my team. But it's not remotely fun.

[Archeron]

If you're not doing everything in your power to win, then I don't really see why you should complain about the result. I don't exactly see what's "unfair" about it. Everyone has access to the same jobs and can use the same strategies. Information on comps, burst, counter-play, and map strategy is available online. I also don't really see your point in ensuring my enemies have fun... Is there some other pvp game where this is encouraged? Finally, there are plethora of "PVE normies" that will follow and very much appreciate you telling them your burst is ready and it's time to attack. I know that from experience. You might not get everyone, but this small amount of communication can start making a big impact on your matches.

Making PvP less fun for everyone is a NET LOSS for the community as a whole.

-Your premades make Frontlines less enjoyable for everyone who participates.
-Your premades take away fair competition, and contest. You will either win by landslides (1/3 of the time), or not at all.
-Less people queue for PvP because you've made it less fun for everyone.
-Even less people will care about your sweaty strategies that 1% of the PvP population even cares for.
-Less people playing PvP, means less attention to PvP, which gets even less resources poured into a mode that everyone thinks is garbage.

Should I have to be "doing everything in my power" to win by employing your sweaty strategies, forming up a group of 3 other sweaty players, and farming wins for hours every single day just to have fun?

I also don't really see your point in ensuring my enemies have fun... Is there some other pvp game where this is encouraged?

Why yes, in other PvP games, its called matchmaking. So teams are balanced, and they generally don't get steamrolled - Because thats not fun, and doesn't encourage further participation.

[Aravell]

I have more fun playing against Olivia than with her. The central issue is fairness. I understand why someone would exploit mixed queueing. You're absolutely right that the object of the exercise is to win, so given the effectiveness of a voice-coordinated premade, people are going to run them. (Until they graduate college and real life intervenes.) But premades lead to dull games and cement the couldn't-care-less attitudes of far too many players in FL. Something I think everyone who cares about the mode would like to reduce.

Note also the presence of premades greatly complicates the balancing issues that SE is not always great at addressing. By mixing queues, they have to balance jobs for both solo players and 4-person, highly-coordinated statics. The endless complaints about DRK, for example, evaporate if they are not stacked in a premade.

While I understand the wish for a fair match, it's not a remotely likely prospect not only because of the highly-coordinated premades you mentioned, the queue needs to also get rid of the people who do the bare minimum for their roulette exp, because those people drag down teams with their 'don't care, tryhard' attitude.

The only way we could possibly get mostly fair matches is not to completely remove premades, but to introduce a hidden rating that we get matched on so everyone in the match is of roughly the same skill level. That way, premades or not, there's a lot less fodder running around and no easy BH5 for anyone.

[Archeron]

While I understand the wish for a fair match, it's not a remotely likely prospect not only because of the highly-coordinated premades you mentioned, the queue needs to also get rid of the people who do the bare minimum for their roulette exp, because those people drag down teams with their 'don't care, tryhard' attitude.

The only way we could possibly get mostly fair matches is not to completely remove premades, but to introduce a hidden rating that we get matched on so everyone in the match is of roughly the same skill level. That way, premades or not, there's a lot less fodder running around and no easy BH5 for anyone.

The solution to premades would be adding that invisible rating you mentioned, but also limiting premades further down to 2 players, and I'd go as far as implementing the maximum 2 player restriction to all PvP modes. (Except ranked CC.)

Also on a side note, I think Battle High V needs to either be outright removed, or vulnerabilities need to be applied in exchange for the boosted damage they recieve. It just makes comebacks even less likely in a mode that favors RNG node spawns, and premade nuking.

[Aravell]

Also on a side note, I think Battle High V needs to either be outright removed, or vulnerabilities need to be applied in exchange for the boosted damage they recieve. It just makes comebacks even less likely in a mode that favors RNG node spawns, and premade nuking.

I'm of the opinion that BH5 isn't a bad mechanic, it's just massively outdated. If they removed the healing up so everyone heals 15000 with Recuperate instead of 22500 at BH5 and also adds a -8% vulnerability up for every stack of BH for a big 40% increased damage taken at BH5, it would be fine. They get a nice damage boost, but they're also much less invincible than before, a DRG would start dying as fast as a ranged job at BH5.