I think SE needs to focus on making players feel important again.

[xbahax92]

Nier had problems with justifying its existence within the worlds lore but damn did they get the concept of an “alliance raid” absolutely perfect compared to the beige nothingness that is myths. Myths makes itself even worse in that the raids from most to least interesting is inverse to their release order so the most interesting raid gets absolutely murdered by ILVL creep while the most boring is relatively untouched (which is funny considering it’s still a joke)

I just really don’t understand the aversion to dying in a game that has no penalties to dying, I actively like getting clusterfuck alliance raids at least it’s something different, I cannot think of a single mechanic in thelia that might spiral into a clusterfuck, thaliak takes 20 minutes to cast anything, llymlaen literally never targets anyone with anything and failing a mechanic at worst blows you into the water which just gives a mild DOT (meanwhile nier just straight up blows you off the map or into red girls infamous death walls), oschon couldn’t kill anyone if he tried and eulogia is basically llymlaen 2.0

Just in case gonna spoiler, but it's about the Myth's last boss.

It's astounding, when I think that the end boss has only 1 new mechanic (second form, fist mechanic). Everything else is just a copy/paste of the twelve. It's a great reference to each boss, but damn hell it's such a trivial fight.

I really miss battles, that needed coordination. You'd usually stop before the boss and give a hint for an upcoming mechanic to new players. Now, all that's left "just dodge and you're gg". I cant speak for savages or ultimates, but normal content like dungeons, few extremes, 8-raids and 24-raids suffer from this basic concept a lot.

[NekoMataMata]

Just in case gonna spoiler, but it's about the Myth's last boss.

It's astounding, when I think that the end boss has only 1 new mechanic (second form, fist mechanic). Everything else is just a copy/paste of the twelve. It's a great reference to each boss, but damn hell it's such a trivial fight.

I really miss battles, that needed coordination. You'd usually stop before the boss and give a hint for an upcoming mechanic to new players. Now, all that's left "just dodge and you're gg". I cant speak for savages or ultimates, but normal content like dungeons, few extremes, 8-raids and 24-raids suffer from this basic concept a lot.

I think the alliance raid is a bit of a different situation from what the OP was getting at I believe. I mean it is a problem. Myths of the Realm is a bit of an underwhelming alliance raid difficulty wise, and it completely lacks any mechanics that really makes the raid require the 3 piece alliance network.

[Supersnow845]

I think the alliance raid is a bit of a different situation from what the OP was getting at I believe. I mean it is a problem. Myths of the Realm is a bit of an underwhelming alliance raid difficulty wise, and it completely lacks any mechanics that really makes the raid require the 3 piece alliance network.

Myths I think is a good example of what the OP is talking about

In myths there is functionally no role divide, just as there is no party divide, you are basically just 24 DPS wailing on the boss with almost no interaction of anything, even healing is barely there, byregot does 1 (ONE) raidwide in his first 5 minutes, rhalger does 1 (ONE) in his first 8 minutes, the healers are just boring casters and the tanks (the only ones that get targeted by any semblance of a role mechanic) can just face tank the ticklebusters and keep wailing on the boss as boring melees

Sub that random SCH out for another BLM and nothing would change, sub one of the tank out for a NIN and all you need is a light shield to keep them alive through the ticklebusters, everything is beige because nothing matters)

[Atelier-Bagur]

I agree there is a level of inherent difficulty reduction that comes from both knowing the content and being an experienced player but that isn’t really what I mean

Take the age old comparison of aurum vale to modern dungeons, no matter how much you specifically know the mechanics and how much you have played the game aurum veil is still harder than any dungeon released since about SB

Same as drawing back to my comparison with myths and nier, I know every mechanic of all 24 fights and nier is still infinitely harder (not hard just harder), inherent game and mechanical knowledge doesn’t make red girl easier than oschon, there is a clear drive in especially EW content (but also a lot of ShB content nier was actually kinda the exception here) to make the content almost unfailable, like what is the actual downside to if you get blown back by wind rose into the water you die instantly, why do you functionally have to try to die in modern casual content to actually be able to die

The Aurum Vale example isnt that good because we also have to take into account the other players, which Ive also stated that counts into the difficulty factor. If you know the mech but the they dont know the mech (or in this case the first pull) then that arbitrarily makes the encounterd difficuly which...I dont know about you but thats not really satisfying in a gaming aspect when you have to rely on forced outside your control to not screw you over. Its why MMO toxicity exists and why difficulty is more beloved in a single player experience.


Also btw Aurum Vale is only bad in that FIRST ROOM. Everything else is just normal cakewalk lol

[VentVanitas]

Nier had problems with justifying its existence within the worlds lore but damn did they get the concept of an “alliance raid” absolutely perfect compared to the beige nothingness that is myths. Myths makes itself even worse in that the raids from most to least interesting is inverse to their release order so the most interesting raid gets absolutely murdered by ILVL creep while the most boring is relatively untouched (which is funny considering it’s still a joke)

I just really don’t understand the aversion to dying in a game that has no penalties to dying, I actively like getting clusterfuck alliance raids at least it’s something different, I cannot think of a single mechanic in thelia that might spiral into a clusterfuck, thaliak takes 20 minutes to cast anything, llymlaen literally never targets anyone with anything and failing a mechanic at worst blows you into the water which just gives a mild DOT (meanwhile nier just straight up blows you off the map or into red girls infamous death walls), oschon couldn’t kill anyone if he tried and eulogia is basically llymlaen 2.0

Myths of the Realm raids make me so sad, they're so non-threatening especially if you play tank. I legitimately can't be bothered dodging half the time when so very few mechanics from those raids can actually kill them, much less drop them below like 90% HP.

I could respect mechanics and resolve Thaliak's Zodiark rotate gimmick, or I could literally stand still in it the entire time because he only does the mechanic once in his entire fight before he's dead and 2 vulns on a tank is nothing. healers won't like me being lazy? doesn't matter, 3/4 tanks can just heal the damage back themselves and DRK has TBN.

[Supersnow845]

The Aurum Vale example isnt that good because we also have to take into account the other players, which Ive also stated that counts into the difficulty factor. If you know the mech but the they dont know the mech (or in this case the first pull) then that arbitrarily makes the encounterd difficuly which...I dont know about you but thats not really satisfying in a gaming aspect when you have to rely on forced outside your control to not screw you over. Its why MMO toxicity exists and why difficulty is more beloved in a single player experience.


Also btw Aurum Vale is only bad in that FIRST ROOM. Everything else is just normal cakewalk lol

That’s why I made that point, this is an MMO there should be coordination between players, I don’t want to be some god (read WAR) who can just treat the other party members as faceless NPC’s I don’t really need. We shouldn’t be able to unilaterally drag a deadbeat party through on the knowledge and overpowered skill set of one player

I’d much rather die on aurum veils first room and have that be a teaching and coordination moment then have WAR charge in pull the whole room and treat the healer like they don’t matter

[Bonoki]

A big part of this issue is the fact that the playerbase is incredibly casual.

I've been here since 2.X and remember when people loved it when things were challenging back then. As more new players and casuals come to the game, I've felt more like I'm the outcast despite being here the whole time. Like I'm the one who doesn't fit in anymore as the game has gotten dumbed down to appease the new wave of influx gamers.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Now instead of complaining about the dungeon difficulty I prefer to provide feedback in how to make the encounters better.

For starters, I think dungeons need to stop being so strictly linear and formulaic. Aka the Wall2Wall pulls. I like how in WoW dungeons you have no such restrictions in how to pull mobs and that sort of thing can have some small flexibility in how to tackle routes. Even in current retail design where its also linear, at least its not as bad as FFXIV where they hard gate keep you from going further in a dungeon.

I also would add to make dungeons a bit more free form in engaging bosses, like having dungeons with variable number of bosses (from 3 to 4 or even just 2 big major ones) and some letting you decide the order of bosses.

Changes that dont necessarilu affect difficulty but give more freedom and flexibility in runs

[Bonoki]

Now instead of complaining about the dungeon difficulty I prefer to provide feedback in how to make the encounters better.

For starters, I think dungeons need to stop being so strictly linear and formulaic. Aka the Wall2Wall pulls. I like how in WoW dungeons you have no such restrictions in how to pull mobs and that sort of thing can have some small flexibility in how to tackle routes. Even in current retail design where its also linear, at least its not as bad as FFXIV where they hard gate keep you from going further in a dungeon.

I also would add to make dungeons a bit more free form in engaging bosses, like having dungeons with variable number of bosses (from 3 to 4 or even just 2 big major ones) and some letting you decide the order of bosses.

Changes that dont necessarilu affect difficulty but give more freedom and flexibility in runs

Playing FF14 and FF16 made me realize just how tired I am of the wall2wall trash pulls, 3 boss fight routine, straight forward path, no exploration, and meaningless treasure coffers that are just on the main path anyway - pattern.
Like at the very least I wish all the coffers had a chance to contain any of the loot from within the dungeon instead of boots on first boss, pants on second boss, chest piece on third boss.

[Supersnow845]

Playing FF16 made me realize just how tired I am of the wall2wall trash pulls, 3 boss fight routine, straight forward path, no exploration, and meaningless treasure coffers that are just on the main path anyway - pattern.
Like at the very least I wish all the coffers had a chance to contain any of the loot from within the dungeon instead of boots on first boss, pants on second boss, chest piece on third boss.

Totally off topic here now but I think 16 both did this really well and really poorly, the trip through sanbreque, the fight with benedikta and the culmination at the oriflamme mothercrystal was flawless (well except for chests that give 2 Gil when opened) and 99.9% of the reason why I now headcanon my 14 character as an escaped bearer. However once this “chapter 1” segment is done the same ultra linearity really becomes a downside for the game.

I in general don’t like ultima anyway and wish the bearers remained the central focus of the plot but even removing ultima the hard linearity and false “open world” of 16 really made the game suffer after that incredibly tight and flawless first chapter