The new 24 man alliance raids are a disappointment (mechanic wise)

[MissBananaNana]

Two big reasons and then a few extra reasons.

One: HP appears to be scaled to the minimum ilevel (i625) and not something like... i640-650. So bosses die really fast.
Two: Bosses spend 3-5 minutes forcing us through a tutorial of their mechanics, rather than getting straight to the point and having us figure things out as they happen.
Bonus Round Three: Combine those two issues together and once people out gear these raids, all we'll see are the tutorial mechanics and not the "real fight." That's boring. With Ivalice we, Orbonne in particular, we still get to have an engaging fight.

Extra: Cast times are very slow and mechanics take a long time to resolve. There's no Alliance Raid or even individual responsibility mechanics in the fights at all (it's all just "don't stand in AoE"). There isn't really anything "new" introduced (something Alliance raids are known for). Etc etc

Perfect summary.
For me alliance raids were alwasy more on the midcore side than on the casual. It was the perfect, you have to pay attention and maybe watch your alliance markers so you dont kill yourself and others. It was the right direction for people who wanna do extemes /savage, to introduce them to certain kind of mechanics.

And its not just ultimate/savage raiders that think this way. Me and my friends are all casuals.

[YanxiaFarmer]

Did it with everyone blind, no wipe or danger… Also extremely disappointed the last boss had so easy mechanics + using 90% mechanics we already know from the earlier fights.. I was like «really???»

[Post]

They are definitely not a disappointment.

There were definitely adds and the adds had interrupts for once again. So many in fact that the tanks either could help the raid by alternating interrupts on different adds, or by ranged physicals helping out with every other interrupt.

Regardless of some of the comments here, many of the bosses had new mechanics. However, said mechanics were pretty intuitive and something you could figure out based on the indicators or the cast names or prior experience doing, really, any content blind. But intuitive is just how SE designs fights now so that's not unexpected or anything.

Spoiler:

The last boss using the mechanics from every boss was great and considering many of the people in the alliance died to them, I would say that no, a toddler wouldn't solve them. But them being from the prior fights meant you had an idea of what to do, it was just they were all packed together in the same fight so that you really had to know all of them or one of them gets you. I thought it was a great way to conclude the raid.

You know they did the 'final boss uses all the actions of the whole raid tier' thing way back in Midas and did it better, because the boss actually combined the mechanics. Better yet, they skipped the damn tutorial because they know you've seen them. Even on normal mode. They went so far out of their way to make all the 12's unique attacks visually unique, and yet they still get introduced sequentially. And then, there's not even anything after the tutorial, it just loops!

Fuck's sake, they couldn't even be bothered to let Nophica 's spell go around the room in a full 360 despite the gigantic ass arena, it's still just like 4 on the one side... it's not a well executed version of the final test idea.

They couldn't even be arsed to do like a Nymeia knockback into a Rhalgr Fist or something, and that's something the first boss of Nier 3 does. It's disappointing at best, because it could have been so much MORE.

Thaliak was the best fight this tier by far. At least Llymlaen had a cool arena and a mechanic that utilizes it well.

[AurisNix]

Two big reasons and then a few extra reasons.

One: HP appears to be scaled to the minimum ilevel (i625) and not something like... i640-650. So bosses die really fast.
Two: Bosses spend 3-5 minutes forcing us through a tutorial of their mechanics, rather than getting straight to the point and having us figure things out as they happen.
Bonus Round Three: Combine those two issues together and once people out gear these raids, all we'll see are the tutorial mechanics and not the "real fight." That's boring. With Ivalice we, Orbonne in particular, we still get to have an engaging fight.

Extra: Cast times are very slow and mechanics take a long time to resolve. There's no Alliance Raid or even individual responsibility mechanics in the fights at all (it's all just "don't stand in AoE"). There isn't really anything "new" introduced (something Alliance raids are known for). Etc etc

I would add one more to this: there are no 24 man mechanics at all at the end it only becomes dodge stuff and that's it, this alliance has less mechanics than some 4 man dungeons, almost every encounter in EW alliances can be done by a 4 man party.

PD: I find it funny how many ppl here thinks that a small bump in difficulty already means Savage content lmao.

[CKNovel]

More than that, they even reused mechanics from the very same tier for the final boss, things you saw 20 minutes ago.
I was legit expecting the "13th" to have a Venat like encounter but not even. There wasn't even a 2nd phase.

The final boss visual was also disappointing, it really feels like the chara designer went "random bullshit, go!".
It feels like my old Bionicle on which I fused every Bionicles I owned.

I get in some cases such as TG Cid and Ultima, the first is way cooler, but Ultima has nothing to be ashamed of.
This final boss literally has the charisma of a recycling bin.

[Renathras]

I'm starting to think that everyone has a different definition of easy.
...
Somehow both casual and hardcore players...

People are saying "too much time to react", but some of the mechanics go off in 5 or less seconds, which is NOT a lot of time. I remember getting annoyed in P1S (the first ever Savage I attempted at level) because the Fourfold chains mechanic gives you ~3.

Ivalice mechanics gave you more time than this, and that was touted as the hardest raid series of all time.

I think a lot of high end players don't realize they're high end players and don't understand that what challenges them will devastate others, especially since the general playerbase isn't in Savage 660 gear. TG Cid's mechanics come out at a similar rate to these 24 mans - and did before the nerfs, too - yet no one said that raid was easy. At this point, I believe if Orbonne was released today, people would be insisting it was too easy. "Mustadio's telegraphs are easy and give you 10+ seconds to react and he attacks slowly." "Agrius just has you use a battle reaction command, boring and my parse!!" "Cid's attacks are slow and the telegraphs are easy." "Ultima just uses some recycled attacks from the last raid. The devs are so lazy!!"

I agree that something that forces wipes isn't difficult, it's badly designed. I saw an analysis of Dark Souls vs Remnant: From the Ashes (also known as "Dark Souls with guns") that praised the latter while ridiculing the former. The nutshell version is: Dark Souls is cheap and kills you over and over, Remnant's fights are fair and you CAN beat the boss the first go if you're paying attention. It's the difference between a game designed to frustrate the player, which some players like and mistakenly call "challenge", and a game with good design where the encounters are fair and if you die, it's on you; actual challenge.

.

As for this 24 man:

Casuals dislike it because it hits too hard, the tells are a bit confusing, especially on the really busy fights where you can't see anything through the spell effects (the last boss 3x charge it's REALLY hard to see which arm is lit up) and the mechanics come at you hard and fast and crazy, with the safe thing to do not always readily apparent. It's too visually busy and, especially the last fight, there's too much going on all at once. The mechanics don't hit as hard as a Savage (and you have more people to drop and still push the fight), but they come out at a pace similar to a Savage.

Hardcores dislike it because it isn't at Extreme level and isn't wiping parties until people figure out the mechanics.

Who said anything about savage though?

When the metric is "there should be full party wipes before people clear fights", that's a Savage thing.

[Arkdra]

When the metric is "there should be full party wipes before people clear fights", that's a Savage thing.

No it's not! That's the problem! Every other raid 24 man raid had week 1 wipes, and outside of Euphro your chances to see a wipe were still pretty decent until around week 4! That's why people were dumping on Euphro and are dumping on this current raid even harder because it's even easier than that.

In this very same patch we got a new MSQ MANDATORY trial. Nobody is complaining about the difficulty of that trial despite it also being not that difficult really. I have done the new trial twice and also not wiped to it. Why am I complaining about Thaleia but not the trial? Because at least my first run of the trial came damn close to a wipe. Down to 2 people standing at one point. I At least ate shit a couple of times on the trial. If I had the same experience with any boss in Thaleia, I wouldn't grouse so much.

[fulminating]

When the metric is "there should be full party wipes before people clear fights", that's a Savage thing.

Could I ask which other alliance raids you’ve done on day 1?

[Renathras]

Could I ask which other alliance raids you’ve done on day 1?

Every one from World of Darkness to the present.

No it's not! That's the problem! Every other raid 24 man raid had week 1 wipes, and outside of Euphro your chances to see a wipe were still pretty decent until around week 4! That's why people were dumping on Euphro and are dumping on this current raid even harder because it's even easier than that.

In this very same patch we got a new MSQ MANDATORY trial. Nobody is complaining about the difficulty of that trial despite it also being not that difficult really.

No, they didn't.

The only Ivalice raid my party wiped on day one was TG Cid. We came close with Agrius. We didn't wipe on Mustadio or Ultima. The other two in the series we didn't have full party wipes on.

NieR raids I can't remember any full party wipes day one.

HW and ARR were too long ago for me to really remember, but I don't recall Syrcus having wipes, or CT when I ran it other than maybe the final boss for the shield thing - something people STILL wipe on today, mind you, due to greeding/pushing that 1%, and you wouldn't call CT hard because of that.

And more than that, this series DID have that. My first run of the first one we had a wipe on Nald'Thal due to the balance scale thing.

Also: No one HERE. I've seen a lot of people complaining that the final phase of the latest Trial is too hard and people are wiping to it frequently. My own party was down to two PLDs and a SAM, and the PLDs were chain Clemencying to get the last 5% of the fight. So yeah, people are complaining the new Trial is too hard. Just not here where people only ever complain that things are too easy...

[OgruMogru]

There's a reason people used to call Weeping City Wiping City