Which Job, in your opinion, has the biggest identity issue?

[LilimoLimomo]

Gunbreaker 100%. It's the tank that's also there, the one without an identity.

Nobody needs me to explain what a Paladin is, because it's an archetypes that is well-established even outside the FF series. It's a knight that uses the power of light to protect. Generally leaning towards "lawful good", which the job narrative recognizes and sliiightly subverts.

Dark Knights are also well-established outside of FF, but they're more varied and FF puts their own spin on it: they're a good-aligned knight that fights against the oppressive powers of the status quo, and they wield the power of darkness in their quest for unwavering justice. They're sort of the flip side of a Paladin, where Paladins are more hopeful and tend to operate within the establishment, while Dark Knights are more jaded and thus operate outside of the establishment.

Warrior could have just been a dude with an axe, but FF14 provides some great lore on what it means to be a Warrior: they experience a phenomenon known as the Inner Beast, which gives them great destructive power but also makes them a liability if they can't control it. Being a Warrior is about having this overwhelming physical power and the rage to effectively use it, but also finding a sort of balance and inner peace that allows you to channel that power and use it not to destroy, but to protect.

So what does it mean to be a Gunbreaker? I feel like the game has never told me. It's given me the history of Gunbreaker origin, how they fought in a war for a specific purpose, and that's neat, but that's a history, not an identity. If I pick up a Gunblade and put on Dante's coat, I'm not fighting for Bozja. So what does it mean for me to be a Gunbreaker now? As far as I can tell, it just means being a person with a gun that can shoot bullets, and trying to do a protect, but without any substance. And that's disappointing. It's an aesthetic with no soul.

[Mikey_R]

Gunbreaker 100%. It's the tank that's also there, the one without an identity.

Nobody needs me to explain what a Paladin is, because it's an archetypes that is well-established even outside the FF series. It's a knight that uses the power of light to protect. Generally leaning towards "lawful good", which the job narrative recognizes and sliiightly subverts.
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So what does it mean to be a Gunbreaker? I feel like the game has never told me. It's given me the history of Gunbreaker origin, how they fought in a war for a specific purpose, and that's neat, but that's a history, not an identity. If I pick up a Gunblade and put on Dante's coat, I'm not fighting for Bozja. So what does it mean for me to be a Gunbreaker now? As far as I can tell, it just means being a person with a gun that can shoot bullets, and trying to do a protect, but without any substance. And that's disappointing. It's an aesthetic with no soul.

First Paladin's in FFXIV have no connection with 'light', that is things associated with Paladin from outside the game and even most of the FF franchise. All Paladin's are in FFXIV are the Royal Knights that protect the Sultana, nothing more, nothing less. This is why Paladins typically cannot leave Ul'dah and travel as freely as out WoL does. FFXIV just adds the light and magic attacks to make it more inline with what people expect of a Paladin from outside sources, not because of any lore reason from ingame.

However, to then continue onto Gunbreaker, Gunbreakers are the main force behind destroying the enemies frontline and ranged support, going in quickly with their aetheric shields primed from the cartridges in their Gunblade. This is why they have the defensive capabilities they do, to better break through and why they attack quickly, as it is easier to disrupt the front line and make it easier for other units to form a more co-ordinated assault. They are also typically the ones designated as the main protectors of the Queen, the same way Paladin's are the ones protecting the Sultana. So, there is your identity, someone who breaks through enemy lines and quickly destabilises it.

[LilimoLimomo]

All Paladin's are in FFXIV are the Royal Knights that protect the Sultana, nothing more, nothing less.

You're talking about the Sultansworn, which is a specific subset of Paladins. In addition to them, there are also so-called "free Paladins" who don't answer to the Sultana, which is what the Warrior of Light is, as well as Solkzagyl.

First Paladin's in FFXIV have no connection with 'light', that is things associated with Paladin from outside the game and even most of the FF franchise.

I didn't say they had a special connection with the light, just that they use it. And they clearly do, with their numerous attacks with the name Holy in them that do shiny light stuff.

FFXIV just adds the light and magic attacks to make it more inline with what people expect of a Paladin from outside sources, not because of any lore reason from ingame.

With respect, I don't understand what point you're trying to make? That's the benefit of using a pre-existing archetype: you don't have to explain every last detail, because people already get it. You say the word "Paladin", I already know what you mean, that's an idea that's been around for hundreds of years and in the fantasy genre for dozens. You don't get that same pass when you make up an entirely new class that nobody has ever seen before. You say the word "Gunbreaker", well, now you have some explaining to do because that's never been done before.

So, there is your identity, someone who breaks through enemy lines and quickly destabilises it.

Not only does that sound like a wet napkin of an identity, but you've just described something that the player never does as a Gunbreaker, at least not more than any other tank, and in my opinion not more than any healer either.

[Mikey_R]

You're talking about the Sultansworn, which is a specific subset of Paladins. In addition to them, there are also so-called "free Paladins" who don't answer to the Sultana, which is what the Warrior of Light is, as well as Solkzagyl.

The Sultsworn is the collective name for the Paladins. Free Paladins came after (way way after) the creation of the Sultsworn and whilst they do not answer (necessarily) to the Sultana, they still represent the Sultana in their actions. This is why they take it seriously when a Paladin starts to defy their ideals, as it is a smear not only on them, but the Sultana as well.

I didn't say they had a special connection with the light, just that they use it. And they clearly do, with their numerous attacks with the name Holy in them that do shiny light stuff.

No, but you said it was their identity, which should come from the game. The reasonings you gave for Warrior and Dark Knight both relate to the game so you at least agree there, but why do you suddenly deny that the game gives Paladin's no connection to light except for the WoL? No other Paladin's show any signs of using Light in anything, so this is a trait the WoL has picked up on their own, separate from the PLDs ingame.

That's the benefit of using a pre-existing archetype: you don't have to explain every last detail, because people already get it.

Because not every game is the same, a Paladin in one game is not a Paladin in another. Considering the fact Paladin, when translated from Japanese is Knight, you are just a knight who uses light, whereas in other games, Knight and Paladin can be 2 distinct classes. This is why is is important to look at the lore ingame.

Not only does that sound like a wet napkin of an identity, but you've just described something that the player never does as a Gunbreaker, at least not more than any other tank, and in my opinion not more than any healer either.

Whether you like it or not doesn't matter, that is what a Gunbreaker is. Go and talk to Radovan and find out for yourself. As for whether it fits, their purpose is to defend and disrupt by drawing attention to themselves as someone who is deadly enough to get through the Allagan's guns. They are going to be a higher priority and someone they want to eliminate quickly. That is literally the whole point of a tank. The quick attacks are represented by the cartridge attacks and Continuation.

So, why doesn't it have an identity? Because it is exactly the same reasoning that other tanks have, but for some reason you dismiss GNB for no reason.

[LilimoLimomo]

The Sultsworn is the collective name for the Paladins. Free Paladins came after (way way after) the creation of the Sultsworn and whilst they do not answer (necessarily) to the Sultana, they still represent the Sultana in their actions. This is why they take it seriously when a Paladin starts to defy their ideals, as it is a smear not only on them, but the Sultana as well.

I wanted to do my due diligence before dismissing your claim, and I'm glad I did because it helped me to understand why we both have different views on this: the game itself introduces paladins in a manner that is easy to misunderstand. In the very first Paladin quest, Jenlyns kind of says it both ways:

Jenlyns: A paladin swears allegiance to the sultanate. A paladin shall be the sword and shield of the sultanate. A paladin defends the people of the realm.

And then later in that same quest:

Jenlyns: A free paladin has no master. Instead he/she travels all lands, and in every place takes up the cause of the unarmed and defenseless. You swear fealty not to a lord, but to yourself─you are nobility amongst adventurers.

Since free paladins are something that Jenlyns literally just invented, I think the best wait to interpret his two "conflicting" claims is that in the former he was describing traditional paladins, while in the latter he was speaking specifically about the newer free paladins. Because there's simply no way that a free paladin can have no master, serve no lord, and simultaneously serve or represent the sultanate.

No, but you said (light) was their identity, which should come from the game.

With respect, I don't agree with that. If the game introduces a known archetype and doesn't defy my expectations with it, they don't need to explain it.

I also wouldn't say that light is their identity, though I can understand how you might have interpreted my initial statement that way since I did mix in some aesthetic bits in there; that's my bad.

No other Paladin's show any signs of using Light in anything, so this is a trait the WoL has picked up on their own, separate from the PLDs ingame.

According to the lore, job skills are learned from the job stone, meaning they would be something other paladins of equivalent level have access to.

And while I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the skills paladins in the game use, I do recall that Branden is able to use Clemency before he becomes a Warrior of Light. And while there are some differences between the exact skills jobs use between the Source and the First, we've never seen something so drastic as an entire element being removed or added.

[TaleraRistain]

So what does it mean to be a Gunbreaker? I feel like the game has never told me. It's given me the history of Gunbreaker origin, how they fought in a war for a specific purpose, and that's neat, but that's a history, not an identity. If I pick up a Gunblade and put on Dante's coat, I'm not fighting for Bozja. So what does it mean for me to be a Gunbreaker now? As far as I can tell, it just means being a person with a gun that can shoot bullets, and trying to do a protect, but without any substance. And that's disappointing. It's an aesthetic with no soul.

Gunbreaker is a protector that isn't afraid to get their hands a little dirty and be a bit of a vigilante. Their story also seems less fighting for ideals and more about fighting for something specific. Which goes along well with how Squall and Seifer started as the protectors of their respective sorceresses and Thancred protects Ryne. Gunbreakers are there to fight for the ones that might slip through the cracks. Kind of like Eorzea's version of The Equalizer.