Dragon Sight change - Just remove positionals already

[Mikey_R]

Why you judge someone if only positonals you did were in dungeons? You are copying same "meta slave" opinion from others that think positionals add insane gameplay value and damage to beat enrage in every fight (spoiler for you it's not).

Who mentioned only dungeons?

Noone claimed that positionals were some massive, big brained thing, just an added layer you need to consider when optimising your job for a fight. There was also no mention that you had to hit positionals to beat the enrage on every fight.

At this point, you are arguing in bad faith.

[Shurrikhan]

I feel like one of the bigger questions in this discussion for keeping/enhancing or removing positionals is simply "Why not have positionals?"

We have no evidence from developer decisions thus far of any consistent need for a certain height in skill ceiling to a given job's cognitive load, or we wouldn't see disparities such as that between MCH and Transpose Lines BLM / Optimal Drift MNK; there is no reason to believe that removing complexity that came from Mechanic A would only then allow for newfound complexity via some New Mechanic B.

As such, the only thing positionals could mutually exclude, or even just compete with, is whatever would likewise make additional use of your movement controls (where you otherwise might not have used them).

So, is there a mechanic or gameplay layer that people would very much like to see that would actually need to steal away / compete for positionals' means of activation? Or would removal be purely for the sake of removal?




I ask in part because it's really starting to sound like just someone looking at a fighting game and going "While I can't imagine anything else with which to fill or provide an alternative to those options, it annoys me that Backwards+LightAttack (at the right time) can have a different result from Forward+LightAttack or just LightAttack and that I might be expected to act accordingly, and so I would rather no one be able to do any of that."

[Payadopa]

Why you judge someone if only positonals you did were in dungeons? You are copying same "meta slave" opinion from others that think positionals add insane gameplay value and damage to beat enrage in every fight (spoiler for you it's not).

By removing rules from a game you make it less interesting. That's why we have them in the first place. It's like saying BLM should deal damage while removing the glass canon aspect so you can stand still and DPS more. People are asking for game aspects to be removed without seeing the bigger picture. The game is already mind-numbingly boring outside out savage already. Why do you think that is in the first place? Easy doesn't necessarily mean boring. Nothing to do means boring.

[Llynethil]

Positionals is just a boring design tbh.

The jobs themselves should be fun to play without needing it, if you need positionals to have fun, your job is badly designed or you're playing the wrong game.

Like take yakuza 0, you wanna position yourself near a wall or certain world object, because you get a satisfying cutscene of beating someone up for tons of damage, backstabbing in a souls game same thing, now look at ff14 positionals .... just another layer of bookkeeping to keep track of, nothing more, blegh.

Which is probably why most pvp versions right now are way more fun to play than the pve version (monk is the best example), and you dont even have a full actionbar if you exclude the shared skills.
I'll take that design over damn positionals anyday.

[ZiraZ]

The jobs themselves should be fun to play without needing it, if you need positionals to have fun, your job is badly designed or you're playing the wrong game.

Melee jobs are already fun by themselves, positionals are just an extra layer of complexity, positionals existing have nothing to do with the rest of the toolkit, removing positionals doesn't (AND WON'T) suddenly give you more fun or better designed jobs.
And why are you even comparing pvp with pve? they have nothing to do with each other, PVP rotations in PVE would be absolutely atrociously boring with no redeeming qualities, the pvp toolkit only works against players in fast paced skirmishes, not on scripted 10 min boss fights.
and I've already said this before but people that want pvp combos in pve simply have no taste

[VentVanitas]

The jobs themselves should be fun to play without needing it, if you need positionals to have fun, your job is badly designed or you're playing the wrong game.

[Lyth]

I find it interesting that the majority of the outspoken opinions against positionals in this thread are still coming from caster mains. You really don't need to enjoy every subrole. Do we need to make a thread now on how having to cast spells is boring? That the abundance of instant casts on casters makes the mechanic trivial? That if you need casts to keep your job fun then it's badly designed?

Let people who enjoy the subrole enjoy it. You have alternatives if you don't like positionals.

[SaberMaxwell]

I'll be the caster main that breaks the trend, then, and say not only should positionals remain, they should go back to the level of importance they used to have.

Not just 60 potency bonus on each positional landed, but make entire effects and combo chains reliant on hitting those positionals. Back in ARR, DRG needed the positional or Heavy Thrust wouldn't apply; it needed rear or Impulse Drive wouldn't work. Maybe don't make them so unforgiving as to shatter combo chains like Impulse Drive was, but give dps a more interactive reason to hit those positionals than an imperceptible to the naked eye potency buff.

[Llynethil]

and I've already said this before but people that want pvp combos in pve simply have no taste

The pvp redesigns overall make you feel way more badass and powerfull than the pve versions, and tend to have better class fantasy ontop of it even, as pala you feel a lot more as a shield that protects others, machinist gets the turret that should replace the pve flamethrower but they refuse to do so and that big sniper ofc, dragoon flows so much better in pvp with focusing your power in the geirskogel window and bursting stuff down, giving you much better estinien vibes than the pve version, etc etc.

While pvp has its flaws for sure, they did a better job with the pvp reworks than they have with the pve ones by far.

PvE is like playing shaq fu while PvP is like playing Yakuza 0.

[Llynethil]

Like I said in my post, go play pvp, monk feels like you're beating the crap out of anything you touch and it flows really well, while the pve version is just buttcheeks compared to it, which isn't just because of positionals, it has more problems then that for sure.