Can 7.0 focus on a storyline without the philosophizing

[AwesomeJr44]

So then you're problem isn't with the philosophizing but the delivery, so maybe say that instead of just assuming it's the philosophizing itself ruining the experience

Like I said, the problem is that it was too preachy, and I'd rather we not get a philosophical message at all than have a risk of getting another preachy expansion. I don't have faith that the writers can handle writing philosophical messages properly.

[Striker44]

Zeromus was literally pulled out of nowhere for the sole reason of "FFIV did it and it's the FFIV expansion". I'm not sure where the writers got the idea that there are supposed to be FF_ expansions that copy everything from the source material, but they've been doing it a lot in Endwalker, especially in 6.x

They've been doing it a lot in every expansion (and it's been well-received by the general fanbase), so I'm not sure why you're surprised they're continuing with it in FFIV.

ARR has the Garlean Empire and Magitek, which is about as close as you can get to "The Empire" and...well...magitek...from FFVI. Not to mention the entire nation of Doma and the samurai Hien being central to SB (Hien being Cyan/Kaien's son from FFVI).

HW featured even more of FFVI with the Warring Triad ripped straight from that game.

SB had the Omega raids, which just straight up took various bosses from FFV and FFVI along with Chaos from FFI with no real "story" to them whatsoever as pure, awesome fanservice (Omega and Shinryu for that matter themselves being from FFV).

Anyone who's followed FFXIV was frankly expecting Zeromus to make an appearance, and I for one am quite pleased with it

[AwesomeJr44]

They've been doing it a lot in every expansion (and it's been well-received by the general fanbase), so I'm not sure why you're surprised they're continuing with it in FFIV.

ARR has the Garlean Empire and Magitek, which is about as close as you can get to "The Empire" and...well...magitek...from FFVI. Not to mention the entire nation of Doma and the samurai Hien being central to SB (Hien being Cyan/Kaien's son from FFVI).

HW featured even more of FFVI with the Warring Triad ripped straight from that game.

SB had the Omega raids, which just straight up took various bosses from FFV and FFVI along with Chaos from FFI with no real "story" to them whatsoever as pure, awesome fanservice (Omega and Shinryu for that matter themselves being from FFV).

Anyone who's followed FFXIV was frankly expecting Zeromus to make an appearance, and I for one am quite pleased with it

References and copy pasting aren't the same thing.

[TheDecay]

Zeromus was literally pulled out of nowhere for the sole reason of "FFIV did it and it's the FFIV expansion".

It's such a bizarre argument: why would we repeat story beats from nearly 30 years ago back when RPGs were not sophisticated and had lackluster storytelling?

[VelKallor]

It's such a bizarre argument: why would we repeat story beats from nearly 30 years ago back when RPGs were not sophisticated and had lackluster storytelling?

As I recall, Titanmen, RPGs like Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, Fallout series, Elder Scroll series, Planescape: Torment, Betrayal at Krondor, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands had excellent storylines and were extremely popular, even the earlier ones like Menzoberranzan had their moments

Then there was Laura Bow, EA's UItima series....

I played them all, so i know.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Going by the logic old games have no place having some of thier ideas shared and expanded on now is an odd take. The concept of our character literally comes from the very first ff game...
So in essence, they can't pay homage to old themes, they can't have characters just have a good time with each other, they can't really have philosophical messaging cause folk feel they're being preached to, they can't not have much philosophical messaging (current story) or folks call it boring and dragging on, they can't have knowledgeable character use their knowledge to help push forward with goal, they can't even offer numerous time where the player gets to choose what they think about what's going on (EW does this more than any expac) because folks still feel they're being preached to, they can't touch on touchy themes like depression, the meaning of life etc. because some folks took in a particular way that made their irl situation worse apparently, they can't have an established group of characters be on the same page despite most being through numerous world ending events together killing any notion of possible petty beef, you cant have this same cast use their hard work n built connections to influence the world around them and even help rebuild some nations because folks feel this group is tainting everything it touches with thier "hivemind", you can't even have a story about nuance (what the whole of EW is about) because many will claim there is no nuance despite it being there clear as day.

Like I could go on and on and it really makes me wonder...what CAN they do? Because to me it seems people want these super tailor made stories to them where things just go exactly how they want it to. Many things folks want are already present but discounted because it's not doing exactly how they want. It's a battle I don't think the Devs n writers will ever win.

[VelKallor]

It's a battle I don't think the Devs n writers will ever win.

Outside this little echo chamber, Ikara, I doubt its even an issue for anyone. I go back to my earlier commentary on the line that these armchair experts have no idea what WILL resonate with players and what wont. As I said earlier, neither they nor I have any real idea of what players want out of FF 14 in terms of story.

you can't even have a story about nuance (what the whole of EW is about) because many will claim there is no nuance depeite it being there clear as day.

These people are more or less the MMO version of art critics, they walk into a gallery, start loudly telling everyone how bad this is, that this isnt good etc etc how in bad taste, "how can anyone like this rubbish"..but also with the singular inability to actually do any better. Going back to Aveyond the Eternally Disapproving, one wonders what they would do when sat down in front of a computer and told to write their own ideas.

I read his "outline", and remember asking him if he could prove that his little "rewrite" would actually NOT put people off, how he knew his ideas were somehow better than the entire MMO writing team. He, of course, never answered because "bad faith arguments' etc, which is a handwave, when you consider that a TRUE writer would be able to provide actual substance to how and why his ideas evolved, how he could make it work..and specifically HOW he would wrote this into an actual MSQ narrative.

MSQ is the product of a GROUP writing effort, never just one person.

[AwesomeJr44]

So in essence, they can't pay homage to old themes

They can, they just can't only do that.

they can't have characters just have a good time with each other

They can, they just can't only do that, especially when the theme of the expansion is overcoming despair.

they can't really have philosophical messaging cause folk feel they're being preached to

Having a philosophical message doesn't necessarily mean you're preaching, it's all about how you deliver your message.

they can't not have much philosophical messaging (current story) or folks call it boring and dragging on

They can, they just can't only do that.

they can't have knowledgeable character use their knowledge to help push forward with goal

They can, but the problems being fixed shouldn't always have a very easy solution, and when every supporting character is 'knowledgeable', it creates a lack of difference between them.

they can't even offer numerous time where the player gets to choose what they think about what's going on

The choices provided don't have any impact, and they are mysteriously absent when certain topics are the current focus of the story.

they can't touch on touchy themes like depression, the meaning of life etc.

They can, but if you're going to touch on a touchy topic like those, you need to do so with care and respect, which Endwalker didn't.

they can't have an established group of characters be on the same page despite most being through numerous world ending events together killing any notion of possible petty beef

You can have this reduce the notion of possible 'petty beef' but when the scions agree on every major issue, it's boring.

you cant have this same cast use their hard work n built connections to influence the world around them

You can have this to an extent, but when it's too useful as a solution to problems, it's a boring solution.

and even help rebuild some nations because folks feel this group is tainting everything it touches with thier "hivemind",

You can rebuild a nation without ideologically assimilating its people.

you can't even have a story about nuance (what the whole of EW is about) because many will claim there is no nuance depeite it being there clear as day.

Endwalker is the expansion with the least nuance.

Like I could go on and on and it really makes me wonder...what CAN they do? Because to me it seems people want these super tailor made stories to them where things just go exactly how they want it to. Many things folks want are already present but discounted because it's not doing exactly how they want. It's a battle I don't think the Devs n writers will ever win.

It doesn't sound like you know what people are asking for. Maybe start listening to what people are saying instead of what you think they're saying, and perhaps you will.

[Theodric]

Even if you take issue with specific posters, there's many enthusiasts of the game's ongoing story who have spoken out in response to Endwalker's outright retcons and often bizarre/hypocritical messaging. So to pretend as if it's solely coming from 'malcontents' is rather disingenuous.

Especially when sources have been provided explaining exactly where the issues and disappointments arise. The game can't please everybody, certainly, though this forum's primary purpose is to serve as a platform for delivering feedback. Whether anything posted will make its way to the desks of the development team is another matter altogether but the point stands.

That being said, it's really quite creepy to bring up someone out of the blue who isn't even participating in the thread and hasn't posted in some time other than one single post. I guess some people are destined to live rent free in some minds, though...

[VelKallor]

That being said, it's really quite creepy to bring up someone out of the blue who isn't even participating in the thread and hasn't posted in some time other than one single post. I guess some people are destined to live rent free in some minds, though...

Just citing a glaring, specific example.

, there's many enthusiasts of the game's ongoing story who have spoken out in response to Endwalker's outright retcons and often bizarre/hypocritical messaging.

This tiny echo chamber is representative of NOTHING. Using it as any kind of metric ? LOL no.