Dragon Sight change - Just remove positionals already

[Post]

Wanting to remove yet another aspect of the combat just shows how shortsighted the people asking for it are. Like, honestly. lol

A battle system should be more than the sum of its parts. If you only examine each aspect in a vacuum none would hold up. Do we need MP? Just remove it then. Do we need more than just crit? Just remove it then. Do we need combos? Just remove it then. Do we need Kaiten? It's just one button to press. In the bin. Do we need bosses? People don't like losing. Just remove them all. Oh, wait. Now no game is left anymore. lol

Again, the notion that bare bones combat would be improved by removing yet another aspect is absurd to me.

Come to think of it, when was the last time they added something to the game's combat system? They remove stuff overall again and again and again, but how often do they add anything?

I'm not even gonna argue that something was good or bad, but they added complexity. Focusing on things that affected multiple jobs or boss mechanics they could use, here's a list of casualties:

Permanent Cliffs
Offensive potions
Cleric Stance
Cross Class
Stoneskin
Protect/lower HP on a player that was resurrected
Disease
Accuracy
Boss "limit breaks" getting more damaging the more a gauge filled instead of binary pass/fails
Utility skills being paired with some damage value
TP and associated actions
Party resource replenishment actions
Damage-type boosting debuffs (blu still has em!)
Pets actions usable during other actions
Pet enmity
Defensive Tank Stance
Enmity Managing Actions
Defensive/Offensive Actions competing for a resource
Limited LB range
Free company buff reducing weakness duration
Ground targeted offensive actions
Rotations centered around other than 2 minute cooldowns


What they've added:
Damaging Ranged limit breaks
Rescue
True North
Shirk
Direct hit (actually a 1 for 1 change!)
Uniform knockback immunity
Invincibility upon revival until an action is made; the duration shown via a buff
Action Charges
Mostly uniform bind, heavy, sleep, stun, silence(interrupt) access based on role
More flexible party composition buffs

Occasionally tanks still get to manually position bosses and melee get to hit positionals that they don't have true north for, and occasionally range still matters for group buffs, heals and melee uptime. Technically, many of the "added" things are just
spreading what existed already for QoL for group comp, which they never really took advantage of in encounter design anyways.

[Eorzean_username]

They literally don't.

I agree that the gameplay value of positionals — as currently designed — to the "average" player's game experience, at this point in FFXIV, is probably being overexaggerated.

However, I am perplexed by the assertion that this statement:

[...] positionals add an extra layer of optimization as you learn a new fight and get used to the mechanics.

...can be "literally" false?

• It adds potency

• It can be failed

• Not missing a single one usually requires planning and anticipation

It seems to me that, by conceptual definition, attempting to strike every positional on a complex or fast-moving encounter is, literally, a part of the optimisation process.

There's a massive can-of-worms to get into about whether it's a good optimisation process, but it's definitely there — just like a Caster striving not to drop a single cast, a Machinist striving not to be out of range for heals, and etc.

[Ransu]

I agree that the gameplay value of positionals — as currently designed — to the "average" player's game experience, at this point in FFXIV, is probably being overexaggerated.

However, I am perplexed by the assertion that this statement:

...can be "literally" false?

• It adds potency

• It can be failed

• Not missing a single one usually requires planning and anticipation

It seems to me that, by conceptual definition, attempting to strike every positional on a complex or fast-moving encounter is, literally, a part of the optimisation process.

There's a massive can-of-worms to get into about whether it's a good optimisation process, but it's definitely there — just like a Caster striving not to drop a single cast, a Machinist striving not to be out of range for heals, and etc.

The raids are not exactly random with their mechanics. Some minor scenarios are different here and there based on individual responsibilities, but in the grand scheme of things savage raids are literally a dance and your rotation will be the exact same at every mechanic every single time. I literally memorize mechanics based on where I am in my rotation lol. Once you have that dance memorized, knowing when and where true north is a waste or not becomes pretty easy. Can you miss 1 or 2 in a fight? Sure. Does it matter? Not really.

Even when positionals actually had meaning and proc things like heavy thrust or changed how much kenki you gained instead of being a potency difference I just never really felt positionals were all that engaging. Kaiten didn't really take that much effort to optimize, but it was fun and engaging to do. Positionals? Meh. They just don't add any value to the game for me, especially now with so many oGCD's making combat seem much faster than it really is I find less value in positionals. Back in ARR they were kinda neat because they filled the gap of an otherwise excruciatingly slow and boring combat and even then the abundance of positionals on MNK wasn't really enough to keep me from being bored. I didn't really fully appreciate the combat till HW with DRG and by that point the combat was busy enough for DRG that I felt the filler of positionals to make the slow combat feel more engaging had lost is merit and the devs have clearly felt that to as they made them less and less impactful. I just don't see the point of them anymore and I definitely don't see the need to add something in place of them since they add zero value to the combat engagement to begin with.

[ZiraZ]

No? You're free to post whatever video you want, but I have zero interest in doing so. I don't pug and I respect the privacy of my static. I also don't need to post a video to refute basic facts that positionals have zero meaning anymore.

Guess it's not as simple as 1 pixel to the right and 1 pixel to the left then? Burden of proof is on you, and for someone that has said multiple times that you don't care either way if positionals are removed or if they stay, you sure do seem to actually want them removed even when not playing melee.

Kaiten didn't really take that much effort to optimize, but it was fun and engaging to do. Positionals? Meh. They just don't add any value to the game for me

Funny, that's the same argument the pro kaiten removal people used, just the other way around, I guess if you put it that way then positional and kaiten do deserve to be removed, what's next? Ley Lines? make it a buff like Presence of Mind! I don't see the value those pesky black mages gain by standing in a silly circle. I'm sure they will add something later in like 3 expansions down the line, pinky promise from SE.

[Mikey_R]

The raids are not exactly random with their mechanics. Some minor scenarios are different here and there based on individual responsibilities, but in the grand scheme of things savage raids are literally a dance and your rotation will be the exact same at every mechanic every single time. I literally memorize mechanics based on where I am in my rotation lol. Once you have that dance memorized, knowing when and where true north is a waste or not becomes pretty easy. Can you miss 1 or 2 in a fight? Sure. Does it matter? Not really.

In what way does this show positionals are a problem? You can use similar arguments for other facets of jobs, like cast times. Knowing where to use true North? How about knowing where to use Swiftcast? Same concept. However, I highly doubt you are advocating the removal of cast times.

You say YOU find no value in them, but that doesn't mean noone does. There are those out there that see the value in them, so why should they be robbed of something they enjoy?

Again, noone is going to have an issue with a melee job that has no positionals, go nuts, however, you need to cover the spectrum, having jobs that go from no positionals to a job that have a majority of positionals. Same as Physical Ranged having no RNG (MCH) to lots of RNG (DNC) or casters going from many cast times (BLM) to virtually none (SMN), though it is interesting to note that there has been alot of backlash against current SMN BECAUSE of the lack of cast times.

To round this off, there is NOTHING inherently wrong with positionals and many arguments that are used to try and show positionals are bad, can just as easily be changed to show how a different mechanic is bad. That is to say, it isn't an argument against positionals solely, so why is it being used as such.

[Ransu]

Funny, that's the same argument the pro kaiten removal people used, just the other way around, I guess if you put it that way then positional and kaiten do deserve to be removed, what's next? Ley Lines? make it a buff like Presence of Mind! I don't see the value those pesky black mages gain by standing in a silly circle. I'm sure they will add something later in like 3 expansions down the line, pinky promise from SE.

Kaiten had a direct impact in multiple area's and its impact was significantly different than positionals and had more going on than simple optimization. Positionals don't require ANY optimization. Its just pointless movement and adds zero levels of engagement. They exist to exist and have zero value unlike kaiten which had significant value.

Ya'll act like its some high skill ceiling thing when its literally the least level of engagement in combat. Oooo I moved to the side! Now back to the rear! Weeeee * eye roll * I'd rather the devs focus more on complex fights and go back to making rotations a bit more nuanced and less worry on dumb shit like positionals.

In what way does this show positionals are a problem?

Fights could be a hell of a lot more interesting for one if positionals were gone. P2S is a great example of that and is still my favorite boss fight.

[Eorzean_username]

Positionals don't require ANY optimization.

What about cases such as:

• Mechanics are assigned semi-randomly, meaning your position relative to the boss at a given point in your rotation can change, and not always be in the correct facing for a given positional?

• A given mechanic movement requires tight / precarious positioning, or passing by the front of a boss, making even small adjustments for positionals risky if planned poorly?

• A sequence in which a boss leaps around and only touches the arena briefly in-between leaps, meaning you need to try to anticipate landing-spots and already be positioned correctly to snag a positional?

• Spending a prolonged period facing a boss's front for a given mechanic or strategy, such that True North needs to be rationed onto the most-valuable gains?

• Positioning for another mechanic placing you such that your gap-close back to the boss unavoidably puts you at the wrong side for where your current combo-step's positional wants you to be?

...And so on.

Assuming that a player wants to try to miss no positional bonuses, don't these cases count as fight-specific optimisation considerations?

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Its just pointless movement and adds zero levels of engagement.

But the movement is exactly the point. It adds a certain sense of artificially-induced spatial dynamism to melee activity. That's engaging for at least some players vs. standing in one spot until an AOE appears.

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They exist to exist

But you could distill nearly anything in any game down to that, though — and it's ignoring the other reasons given for why their existence feels relevant to players that like them (ie, what it adds to spatial considerations per-encounter, and that it acts as a mild differentiator of player improvement with their command of a given Job).

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Ya'll act like its some high skill ceiling thing when its literally the least level of engagement in combat. Oooo I moved to the side! Now back to the rear! Weeeee * eye roll *

I think most players that enjoy positionals enjoy the challenge that comes from circumstances where you cannot just pivot slightly like that, though.

Additionally, you're discounting that something as simple as that steady, consistent, rhythmic motion — rather than completely-static positioning — can be enjoyable from a user-experience perspective, the same way that some people just liked the look or feel of chaining Kaiten into Iaijutsu.

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I'd rather the devs focus more on complex fights and go back to making rotations a bit more nuanced and less worry on dumb shit like positionals.

But these things aren't mutually-exclusive.

For example, Heavensward had a fairly nuanced rotation on Dragoon, but also gave it several more positionals to manage at the same time — which in fact added to, and helped build, that nuance.

Then again, you may have a point — in the sense that the developers currently seem to view positionals as part of a Job's "complexity budget".

For example, in a pre-EW interview, Yoshida said something like (paraphrasing heavily), "Once we gave Monk the new Beast Chakra system, we decided that since that added so much to keep track of, we would remove the positionals from Raptor actions".

In that sense, maybe Jobs really are "choosing" between positionals and other complexities now.

[VentVanitas]

Positionals don't require ANY optimization.

if you played ShB MNK in the last tier of Eden then you would know that's just blatantly incorrect. just because you find it easy or don't like it, that doesn't mean it stops it from being a form of optimization. you are going to have to get over this.

[Aco505]

Positionals don't require ANY optimization.

Objectively wrong. Another question is if you don't think that optimization is relevant or rewarding enough.

I shall illustrate my point with P11S, which we could say is one of the hardest Savage fights in EW when it comes to hitting all positionals.

As DRG, the fight timeline goes as such:

1. For the first three elemental attacks, there's RNG involved. You can use TN in two of them but not three. If they are all light, you will need to use TN in every single one of them whereas you don't need to for any of the dark variations.

How to solve the problem if you get three light versions in a row? The target of the light (and dark) tether (Upheld Overruling) needs to position dead center of the arena but a tiny bit north so that the boss' facing doesn't change. Thus you save a TN charge there if the Divisive Overruling (line attack) is light.

All standalone Upheld Overrulings should be resolved as such.

2. All Styx stacks have to be resolved dead center of the arena and the healer needs to pay attention to avoid changing the facing of the boss (he will change facing before each hit if the target moves) so that you can take the stacks and still get the rear and flank in the center of his hitbox.

3. For Arcane Revelation (first mirrors), you will have to greed a positional away from your group a couple of seconds before the mechanic resolves.

4. For the Jury Overruling (proteans) after Shadowed Messengers, you will have no TN left.

If it's the light pattern, you will have to play with the snapshot of the light party stack after a FnC to quickly move behind the boss to hit a WT, especially if you are in the group with the MT (my case).

If it's the dark pattern, you have to EJ towards the boss' rear right after the pair stacks and donuts resolve or you won't have time either, as he will face the MT right after.

5. For Dark and Light, you will need to have two TNs before it starts and there's RNG involved. I use the Kindred strat.

- If you're tethered to the long tank, you will be able to hit them all because they always provoke the boss so that he keeps looking north. You will need to TN for the proteans and line attacks, especially if they are light based.

- If you're short tether, you will have to ask your supports to move with you at specific times when there's nothing going on so that you can hit as many positionals as possible without relying on TN.

- If you're tethered to the long healer, you are screwed as you are in front of the boss and you have to use your two TNs to cover as many positionals as you can. It's possible that there could be better strats to avoid this.

Since there's a Styx right after the mechanic is over, you will need to be quick to reach the boss' flank for a FnC. EJ is helpful but walking can be enough.

6. For Dark Current, you may want to be the melee DPS chasing the AoEs (I do it so that my NIN gets the rear for the whole duration) and, if the safe spots start north and south, you need the MT to not move until the boss begins casting Blinding Light (the spread AoEs) so that you can hit a FnC right before the AoEs start rotating.

7. Finally, in Letter of the Law, the MT has to wait around 1-2 seconds before joining the party (if they are not dark tether) so that you can finish a WT. Since you will use two TN in a row here, you want both melees to be on the same light party and opposite of the MT as otherwise you will miss a CS positional at the end (and the subsequent WT too if it's light KB but you can just EJ through the boss if timed well).

I haven't included any random uses of TN like the one you need for each Lightstream and such to avoid making the post too long.

And all of this doesn't take into account that you have to predict the overall turning of the boss during the whole fight, that the tank needs to be fast and reliable when repositioning, that you need to be intercardinally for the dark proteans, that you need to run back in as fast as possible after standalone light patterns, etc.

So yes, there's optimization around them whether you care or not (mine is not even perfect), and as you can see, it involves more than just the DRG player. It's not a simple "go one centimeter to the left and then one to the right", as you often say.

I'd rather the devs focus more on complex fights and go back to making rotations a bit more nuanced and less worry on dumb shit like positionals.

Fights could be a hell of a lot more interesting for one if positionals were gone. P2S is a great example of that and is still my favorite boss fight.

Agreed that rotations should be more nuanced but it's naive to think that removing positionals is the requirement to do so or if they will do it at all given what's been happening to combat complexity.


And as others have already explained before, positionals have not limited fight design and not every omnidirectional boss has been great (see P7S and imho P12-2S).

[Aco505]

if you played ShB MNK in the last tier of Eden then you would know that's just blatantly incorrect. just because you find it easy or don't like it, that doesn't mean it stops it from being a form of optimization. you are going to have to get over this.

I remember E12-2S being a pain as DRG due to needing TN during Apocalypse but not having a weave slot to use it since the jumps' animation lock reduction hadn't happened yet. Or the shenanigans in E9S.