Zodiark's Codex entry what do we think about it?

[Alleluia]

I honestly never read it as 'the souls fell out and are in the aetherial sea'; the third sacrifice was a confirmed element as far back as 5.0, and that particular part only really makes sense if there are souls still in there.

I felt the exact opposite. They sacrificed themselves to power a primal. Sacrificing yourselves isn't really sacrificing yourselves if you are still there. Thus the third sacrifice was an attempt to bring back the dead by using Zodiark's power to reconstruct/rez them from nonexistence. Which never works well (look at Eda. Or Bahamut). I thought they were enacting that plan as a result of tempering and were ultimately just unknowingly serving Zodiark more aether in an endless cycle. Cus they were tempered and that's generally what a primal's tempered do. As of 5.5, we had zero reason to believe a "resurrect the dead" plan would actually work, especially when those dead had been blendered into pure aether to power up a primal enough to stabilize a planet.

Then 6.0 happened and the potential effects of tempering on the convocation was kinda thrown out the airlock, and the moon was haunted, and my understanding stated above wasn't an option anymore.

[Iscah]

I felt the exact opposite. They sacrificed themselves to power a primal. Sacrificing yourselves isn't really sacrificing yourselves if you are still there. Thus the third sacrifice was an attempt to bring back the dead by using Zodiark's power to reconstruct/rez them from nonexistence. Which never works well (look at Eda. Or Bahamut). I thought they were enacting that plan as a result of tempering and were ultimately just unknowingly serving Zodiark more aether in an endless cycle. Cus they were tempered and that's generally what a primal's tempered do. As of 5.5, we had zero reason to believe a "resurrect the dead" plan would actually work, especially when those dead had been blendered into pure aether to power up a primal enough to stabilize a planet.

This. As far as we knew, their souls were either long gone back to the aetherial sea or destroyed to fuel the summoning. That's why the worldwide sacrifice was such a grave and noble undertaking, not just a temporary "stand here for a while and hold the aetherial fort until we can let you out again". Include that escape clause as in inherent part of the plan and it stops being a sacrifice and turns into just being a duty.

The apparent tragedy of Emet-Selch and presumably all the Ascians as of 5.X, was that they were fixated on this plan that if they just gathered enough aether they could undo the sacrifice and restore their brethren, when really it was a false hope all along.

[Kazhar]

This. As far as we knew, their souls were either long gone back to the aetherial sea or destroyed to fuel the summoning. That's why the worldwide sacrifice was such a grave and noble undertaking, not just a temporary "stand here for a while and hold the aetherial fort until we can let you out again". Include that escape clause as in inherent part of the plan and it stops being a sacrifice and turns into just being a duty.

What makes you think they knew they were going to be saved?
If anything, the story + supplemental material implies the reverse. The third sacrifice was designed after the star was restored, with mixed reactions from the Ancients population. If the plan was to save them the entire time, clearly the divide would have happened earlier?

Also it's clear with EW that they were not having a great time inside the Zodiark purgatory, so even if their souls didn't die entirely I wouldn't say that it wasn't a sacrifice.

[MikkoAkure]

This. As far as we knew, their souls were either long gone back to the aetherial sea or destroyed to fuel the summoning.

I don’t think that’s the case and that Cleretic is right.

If Hythlodeus’s aether was committed to the Aetherial Sea or used up, then I don’t think he would’ve shown up whole with all his memories when we call him and Emet in Ultima Thule and he would’ve reincarnated many times over the past 12,000 years with his memories and sense of self long washed away. I got the impression from the MSQ that it wasn’t until after we killed Zodiark that the souls can finally go to the Aetherial Sea and that’s how we were able to call Hythlodeus’s spirit along with Emet’s at the end.

I don’t think the souls were “easily recoverable” either, they’re being used to power a god and without them the god disappears. Considering they were all tempered, I don’t think that was going to happen and even if they weren’t they seemed keen on the whole “will of the star made manifest thing” so I thought the whole idea was that Zodiark needed a ton of living aether equal to 3/4 of the population of Ancients who survived the Final Days to keep on truckin’ while bringing back those sacrificed and that’s part of the reason for the split between Venat’s crew and the Convocation.

If Zodiark were able to bring back souls from the Aetherial Sea, you would think that they would have been talking about the revival of ALL Ancients this entire time since I’m sure a sizable chunk of not the majority of the planet died in the Final Days, but I’m pretty sure that they have instead only been talking about Zodiark-sacrificed Ancients.

[Iscah]

What makes you think they knew they were going to be saved?
If anything, the story + supplemental material implies the reverse. The third sacrifice was designed after the star was restored, with mixed reactions from the Ancients population. If the plan was to save them the entire time, clearly the divide would have happened earlier?

The quote that Cleretic provided above indicates that they were aware of a plan for their resurrection: "We remember in vivid detail the events leading to our purgatory. The plans and plots for our resurrection. Hydaelyn's intervention, and Zodiark's--and the star's--final fate."

It was the implementation of this plan that Venat was trying to stop. It was the cause of the split between the factions.

The difference is that where back in Shadowbringers we could speculate that part of this point of contention was between those who believed the souls could be resurrected and those who thought they were already gone and the endeavour was futile -- throwing away new lives in a vain attempt to revive ones already dead and beyond saving.

Endwalker changes that balance and makes it about them knowing all along that the souls were in there waiting.

I don’t think that’s the case and that Cleretic is right.

If Hythlodeus’s aether was committed to the Aetherial Sea or used up, then I don’t think he would’ve shown up whole with all his memories when we call him and Emet in Ultima Thule...

I'm not talking in terms of what actually happened in Endwalker, but in terms of where the story had the potential to go based entirely on the facts we knew before Endwalker's release.

[WhiteArchmage]

The quote that Cleretic provided above indicates that they were aware of a plan for their resurrection: "We remember in vivid detail the events leading to our purgatory. The plans and plots for our resurrection. Hydaelyn's intervention, and Zodiark's--and the star's--final fate."

It was the implementation of this plan that Venat was trying to stop. It was the cause of the split between the factions.

The wording there implies that they were still aware within Zodiark and thus learned about the plan for their resurrection after the summoning, so it lends more credence to it being made after said summoning. Notice he also says they remember Hydaelin's intervention and Zodiark's final fate, which they would have no way of doing so given those events happened while they were Zodiark.

[SannaR]

The wording there implies that they were still aware within Zodiark and thus learned about the plan for their resurrection after the summoning, so it lends more credence to it being made after said summoning. Notice he also says they remember Hydaelin's intervention and Zodiark's final fate, which they would have no way of doing so given those events happened while they were Zodiark.

That's how I've read it. That both of the 1st two sacrifices went in thinking if not fully believing that it would be a one way trip. That there was no proverbial hold the aetherial fort until we are able to get you out of there. That it would be the equivalent of sending something more than a drone into a Stargate Portal or sling shotted to who knows where via a Mass Effect relay. Before a retrieval plan had even been discussed let alone worked out. Which is why for me if the Convocation and everyone else who was pro 3rd sacrifice doesn't make sense if they still thought and felt the same way about souls prior to Zodiark's summoning.

That they would just be condemning more souls in order to release the ones that were already in there. That as a plan was asinine in that sure it could have maybe worked, but you'd still have souls that would be unable to return to the Aetherial Sea. Where it would make more sense if they tried to free them with an abundance of just aether. Unless they didn't think that would work.

For instance both D and AAA are both batteries and yet you're not going to be able to swap one out for the other.

[Kozh]

Where it would make more sense if they tried to free them with an abundance of just aether. Unless they didn't think that would work.

For instance both D and AAA are both batteries and yet you're not going to be able to swap one out for the other.

Well that's why it makes more sense if the third sacrifice involved animals/creatures. Otherwise we have to believe that a society who's so against people being robbed of their purpose, and have the same emotion as humans, are fine with their children going into zodiark to replace the souls inside it.

[Cleretic]

That they would just be condemning more souls in order to release the ones that were already in there. That as a plan was asinine in that sure it could have maybe worked, but you'd still have souls that would be unable to return to the Aetherial Sea. Where it would make more sense if they tried to free them with an abundance of just aether. Unless they didn't think that would work.

For instance both D and AAA are both batteries and yet you're not going to be able to swap one out for the other.

I still don't think what they were sacrificing needs to be specific or is necessarily important. With this, I always step back and break it down on what the story needs that third sacrifice to be to make sense.

1. It can't be an option that was always safe and available, or else the Convocation would've looked stupid for not doing it the first time.
2. It can't be an option that's just unobjectionably safe and preferable, or else Venat's group would've looked stupid for objecting to it.
3. It still has to be goddamn huge, or else the plan doesn't make sense on both a narrative and logical level.

We can rule out that it involved sacrificing more Ancients, because that was never how it was described by either Fake Hythlodaeus or Venat's group. But beyond that, all we have is its weight; that it's a sacrifice big enough to sound that final alarm, and force that argument of 'save our past versus save our future'. I don't think we'll ever get an answer to what that is, nor do I think the story would actually benefit from them being specific, because ultimately, this comes down to an uncertain moral question that's intended to not have a 'right answer'. Giving us objective specifics would just lead to people deciding there is a more objective and specific answer.

The third sacrifice was whatever would have made you in that context either go 'this is too far and needs to be stopped by any means' or 'I can understand why people would object but it's for the greater good'. I have my own internal answer to that, but I won't share it, because if I do I know that's just going to lead to people trying to tear down my internal reading that works for me, rather than trying to find an answer that works for them.

[Denishia]

Well that's why it makes more sense if the third sacrifice involved animals/creatures. Otherwise we have to believe that a society who's so against people being robbed of their purpose, and have the same emotion as humans, are fine with their children going into zodiark to replace the souls inside it.

See, that’s exactly what the Third Sacrifice read to me and why theories arguing that the Third Sacrifice was proposed to only be plants/animals felt ludicrous to the type of story being told. The Convocation/Ascian plan was about sacrificing the future generation in a desperate hope to reverse a sacrifice of their peers, knowingly or unknowingly condemning the souls of past who were now reborn into new and unfamiliar forms. Emet by trying to undo Hythlodaeus’s sacrifice is trying to kill the inheritor of Azem’s will/soul shard. It’s the core of the tragedy and central to why they are the antagonists.