Crystalline Conflict Tier List (with deep maths!)

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Gonna chime in rq for Sam. How is its CC tied at bottom with DRG at 1/5?
It has a 2s hard stun and an AOE bind that can each be used twice in less than 20s.

Good catch! I wasn't solely responsible for crunching all the numbers, so it looks like my compatriot was only counting Mineuchi and not Hyosetsu. With the corrected crowd control numbers, SAM would rate a 4 in that criterion, which would consequently squeak it into the bottom of our A tier. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Pet_me]

Dont forget nebula also does damage

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Which is why this statement is so egregiously wrong - or rather, it's ONLY correct if you throw away 60k+ healing from recuperate. With recups, healer junction maths out to about 61.5 <Base> + 1.2 <NM> * ((15 * 4) <Recup> + 9 <Gnashing> + 24 <Aurora>) = 173k eHP, and tank junction maths out to 1.2 <Nebula> * (61.5 <Base> + 1.2 <NM> * ((15 * 4) <Recup> + 15 <Gnashing>)) = 182k eHP. And of course, once you consider any practical gameplay the scales tilt even further in Tank junction's favor - because Nebula reduces incoming damage, it's easier for GNB to stay in the fight to get full value out of recup and finish the full gnashing combo - while healer junction will often struggle to even get full value out of the full 12s Aurora regen without keeling over and dying to burst. Top this off with the fact that any external healing the GNB gets is also amplified by Nebula - why is this class not the tankiest class in the game with Tank junction?


There's a really awkward attempt to quantify the value of any given cooldown based almost purely on numbers. And that's fine, except if you try to use this rubric to create a rating list and rate classes on that scale because it's nonsense that ends up putting classes with 0CC (DRG) on the same level as a class with a stun and a snare (SAM). And it's also fine except if your math literally doesn't work and claims that PLD has more burst than BRD. And it's also fine except if you fail to properly quantify how classes interact with both your teammates and the enemies, fail to properly quantify average case scenarios for a given game state, and fail to properly understand that value does not scale linearly with numbers. Which your tier list more or less fails to do in like half the jobs it grades.

I'm fully aware of the limitations of doing GNB math--that job is very, very weirdly built in more ways than one.

Also, if you precast Holy Sheltron, PLD's burst IS higher than BRD's.
Holy Sheltron (12k) + Confiteor (8k) + Intervene (2k) + Shield Bash (4k) + Atonement (8k) = 34k

With both Frontliner's buffs for BRD:
Repelling Shot (4410) + 15y Pitch Perfect (8820) + 3x Empyreal Arrow (4410 x 3 = 13230) = 26460

The potency numbers are publicly available, feel free to do the math yourself if you don't believe me.

SAM's crowd control rating was due to a clerical error, which I've addressed above. WHM mobility rating should also be a point lower due to clerical error, good catch.

I would gladly calculate based on game state and player input, but I unfortunately am not Dr. Strange. If you can think of way to do this better besides just doing everything with the eye test, be my guest.

[Aisi]

I'm fully aware of the PLD burst combo. I addressed it in the first post, and regardless you're not doing the BRD burst correctly because you're not factoring in the delay on Apex Arrow and how it lines up with the rest of the burst. BRD is picked in LP precisely for it's 30k burst and for it's ability to put down Wardens.

Unfortunately none of us are Dr. Strange but it turns out you don't need a PhD to add up Bard burst and see it's better than PLD.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

I'm fully aware of the PLD burst combo. I addressed it in the first post, and regardless you're not doing the BRD burst correctly because you're not factoring in the delay on Apex Arrow and how it lines up with the rest of the burst. BRD is picked in LP precisely for it's 30k burst and for it's ability to put down Wardens.

Unfortunately none of us are Dr. Strange but it turns out you don't need a PhD to add up Bard burst and see it's better than PLD.

Sorry, I had refreshed to the bottom of the page and didn't see your 10 posts. You can type a shorter post and edit it in order to circumvent the character limit! I was also not responsible for crunching RPR numbers, but yes, the rubric was built to consider only the most ideal possible burst--although in the case of said burst being contingent on LB usage, we averaged a "with LB" and a "without LB" number.

Not sure what you mean by "not factoring the delay on Apex Arrow", since Apex isn't even part of the ~1GCD STB being calculated. If you mean that there should be another 8400 tacked on there for Blast Arrow, that would break our rules on how may GCD's we're allowing during the window we're considering. If we just gave everyone else another free GCD as well, then...there isn't really a point.

Trying to catch up and address your other posts:
WHM STB was calculated as 40k with LB, 20k without. Seraph Strike is included.

MNK burst with LB is 72k and does easily top out the scales--but we also averaged it with its "w/o LB" value, which put it at a borderline value on the rubric between 4 and 5 points. Due to the way the rest of the rubric was graded, borderline values are rated in the lower bracket.

RDM's low mobility rating is likely because we used the rule of "half value for mobility that was only valid on one type of target". It might seem like an unfair assessment, but I don't think you can argue that 2 enemy-only dashes and 2 enemy-only backflips is just as mobile as, say, Thunderclap.

DRG mobility rating is also a clerical error, it should be 4 and not 5. This is the result of us retooling our entire rubric 3 times and some of our re-scoring slipped through the cracks. I'll see if I can update the graphic to reflect the mistakes that you all are catching--we genuinely appreciate it. That being said, I don't think the value of Elusive Jump should be understated, and High Jump is only a 10s cooldown.

WHM is edging out AST because of Cure III being AoE, and its party-wide regen from Purgation.

GNB's defensive numbers are skewed by Junction DPS dragging the average down. I wouldn't fault you at all if you consider that a flaw of the system, but I would also say that it's not too uncommon for a GNB to matched against a full team of 5 DPS. As for failing to account for burst survivability, we'd have to do some real funky stuff like weighing % mitigation more heavily than healing, and I don't think there's a good answer for doing that. The DEF stat is only trying to measure how much defensive utility is generally available to the job, not how it performs against and in particular situations. AST was also awarded an additional point just for HAVING Bole/Macro/Celestial. Maybe you could make the argument that each of those should constitute a point in and of themselves? But we didn't crunch the numbers on them because of their indeterminate nature.

DNC and RPR having high CC ratings due to unblockable+uncleansable AoE crowd control is a tough one. It's definitely a case wherein the numbers don't tell the whole story...but it's almost like there's a giant disclaimer. At the top of the post. That says you should use common sense and in-game experience to contrast against the numerical system. In any case, DNC/RPR LB are both supremely impactful when they do hit, and we're considering things based on what happens when buttons hit. If we considered counterplay and enemy mitigation for everything, then nothing would ever work and all the numbers would be lower.

[Cidel]

Look at all the new accounts created just to post in this thread...

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Look at all the new accounts created just to post in this thread...

engagement tweet go

[Pet_me]

Look at all the new accounts created just to post in this thread...

I post in every cc thread they all get deleted so my post count stays 0

[ShikiS]

to think you spent a week on this... good meme (though most of it is wrong)

[kayll]

Not to piggyback on the back of the things Aisi said, but they explained a lot of my issues with this tier list, better than I possibly could.
It can't cover all the possible circumstance of an actual match as it plays out,and you cant look at everything in a vacuum so its hard to make an objective tier list.
You'd be better off just making a tier list of your own opinion on the balance of said classes instead of trying to make an "objective" that doesn't consider most everything.