Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[WaxSw]

Won't respond to your attempts to put words in the general player bases' mouths.

Also you:

Lots of people like Summoner as it is.

. I have a significant amount of playtime in XIV and SMN is my favorite DPS job. I think it's the best designed so no point going back and forth what you feel others think. Just speak for yourself. You also aren't posting any data on this other than vague polls that happened...somewhere?

Literally here, on the official forums, here let me link you the thread. While this is a sample data of players invested enough to interact with the game in social media (as this poll was posted in several places other than the OF) the fact that SMN stands as one of the top 3 worst rated jobs basically contradicts the whole dialogue of "highly invested people love it" because taking that poll and the number of likes and comments people supporting the job and comparing it with people talking about how problematic and badly designed it is shows that the latter seems to be more common than the former.

You may like it, and its perfect that way, your opinion is yours but I once again have to repeat. PEOPLE. ASKING. FOR. SKILL. CEILING. DON'T. INVALIDATE. YOUR. PLAYSTYLE. In the same way BLM has standard and non standard there is nothing wrong with people wanting SMN to be more, you can keep the simple playstyle and those who want more can try to squeeze more out of it that they currently can't.

Sure, if you want to have options for all classes to play like Summoner or have an even easier mode than why not? Not really sure how you envision this but fine

The opposite actually but that is a talk that is irrelevant in the end.

A few here have some strange nostalgia for it but not many

Once again I summon the poll and the constant complaints of experienced players over the EW years, people play it but its not a few those who have "strange nostalgia" (a.k.a they butchered the job and gave nothing back)

I'm sure SE is seeing how popular the class is now and will see they have successfully revamped it. Am curious what they add to it next expansion but I'm going to bet it will stay similar to what it is now given popularity

See? This is something I agree, not because the current SMN is a success or anything, as I've said like it or not its a problematic job for the game and caster balance, but because if EW is anything to go by, they are very unwilling to make changes.

as a former smn main that plays current smn i would say yippee, i love the new smn, i have nothing to prove to anyone about skill floors/ceilings, im playing a game, the class is fun, its not all rng and procs, boo hoo, if its not something you like dont play it, but dont try to diminish the opinions of people that do like it, its fine, it doesn't have to be anything but what it is. your gold standard in not mine, everyone here is arguing opinion but for some reason think it fact.

You do realize that we're not diminishing oppinions, we are saying that a skill ceiling does not contradict a skill floor (outside the point is mentioned where SMN existence fucks caster balance seriously), you can keep your easy to play SMN but at the same time, as zephyr said, this is a product for the masses and in those masses there are people who want to squeeze more out of the job design and its fine to give them something.

Just a clarification, is not "my" gold standard. The "good design is easy to use hard to master" is the bushnell law which is basically THE gold standard.

[Boblawblah]

You do realize that we're not diminishing oppinions, we are saying that a skill ceiling does not contradict a skill floor (outside the point is mentioned where SMN existence fucks caster balance seriously), you can keep your easy to play SMN but at the same time, as zephyr said, this is a product for the masses and in those masses there are people who want to squeeze more out of the job design and its fine to give them something.

Can you give me an example of how I can keep the exact same simple playstyle while you're allowed to 'squeeze more out of the job'? What would that look like?

EDIT: I hate the post limit btw, it discourages good conversations.

Now I haven't really played SMN at anything above an Extreme so I'm probably not the best person to answer this, but there's a few initial ideas that I could think of off the top of my head.

- Making the order of the summons have an impact on the gameplay. -

You know how the legos kinda have set charges. Garuda has 4, Titan has 3 and Ifrit has 2 and the fact that Ifrit has a GCD that has a cast time. Why not apply that to the order instead of the actual summon instead, and to have that damage ramp up and gain different interactions depending on how many summons you summoned before? To give an example.

• Ifrit is summoned first. Ifrit has 4 charges and the primal attack. Summoner now gets the "Eikonic Influence" buff that gives a 10% damage buff to the next Summon.
• Titan gets summoned next. Titan has 3 GCD charges that now has a 1.5 GCD cast time has 2x increased base Potency. The primal attack now gives a vuln up to the initial target of the primal attack. Summoner gets an "Eikonic Influence" stack.
• Garuda gets summoned last. She has 2 GCD charges that are now hardcast for 2.5 seconds and has 3x increased base potency (much like the Ifrit GCDs from the system now). The primal attack now gives anyone standing in the circle a vuln up and a DoT that keeps getting refreshed if the target stays in the AoE.

Of course there's a lot more interactions other than those 3, and it all depends on the order of the summoning.

Like maybe if Ifrit gets summoned first there's really no buffs at all, then if he gets summoned second, then the Primal Attack has a DoT on the target, and if Ifrit gets summoned last then the primal attack is guaranteed a Crit/DH hit.

Or maybe we can also experiment with party buffs with the interactions as well. Maybe if Garuda gets summoned as a second primal, the party gets a massive movement speed ala Combat Peloton once she appears. Maybe Titan drops a mini shield to the party when he comes out etc...

Point is, you now have an option to stick with the old playstyle of Garuda -> Titan -> Ifrit, OR you can mix it up depending on what you need during the encounter. Options gets opened up, and there's now a skill ceiling while the skill floor is low.

I really like this!! I would actually be more encouraged to learn more about optimizing if something like this was in game. That said, I wonder if this would be nearly enough for the hardcore players. I get the feeling this would be just as braindead as the current iteration of SMN.

[ShadowNyx3]

As to why SMN needs some form of ceiling, outside how a job that has no ceiling is badly designed one, its also because its current design is a problematic one for the caster role as a whole because its damage has to be comparable with the other 2 but also breaks the role rules since it doesn't really have anything to manage, not even casts. This job canibalizes the role because its skill floor performance is so close to the ceiling of the other 2 that it becomes the best solution for prog but also, since it doesn't interact with the fight in the way a caster would its experience doesn't translate well to the other 2, we no longer have the "RDM for prog and BLM/SMN for opti", we only have "SMN for prog and reclears".

The job also makes the role a nightmare to balance because by design it avoids the usual problem casters have of having to mantain cast uptime or manage the resources to allow it, which gives it an unfair advantage over the other 2 that is extremely hard to balance because the skill floor and ceiling are so close that any change to almost any skill would affect both equally.

RDM does not do enough damage to justify requiring melee uptime during burst in a 2 minute burst meta catering to melee dps damage. Damage is tanked because of perceived extensive party utility.

RDM also does not have enough tools to keep up with the mobility of SMN and BLM.

BLM has been given zero party utility and needs to be constantly buffed to keep up with melee dps damage because it can’t raise like its other role mates.

I fail to see how SMN is holding this role back by being in the literal middle of two extremes.

Also throwing the mechanical disadvantages aside, if a job is harder to play and does more damage then that is a skill issue for the player and not one of job balance. You can approach your prog in raiding however you’d like and being able to choose an easier job vs a harder job for consistency vs damage output is a good thing.

[Payotz]

Can you give me an example of how I can keep the exact same simple playstyle while you're allowed to 'squeeze more out of the job'? What would that look like?

Now I haven't really played SMN at anything above an Extreme so I'm probably not the best person to answer this, but there's a few initial ideas that I could think of off the top of my head.

- Making the order of the summons have an impact on the gameplay. -

You know how the legos kinda have set charges. Garuda has 4, Titan has 3 and Ifrit has 2 and the fact that Ifrit has a GCD that has a cast time. Why not apply that to the order instead of the actual summon instead, and to have that damage ramp up and gain different interactions depending on how many summons you summoned before? To give an example.

• Ifrit is summoned first. Ifrit has 4 charges and the primal attack. Summoner now gets the "Eikonic Influence" buff that gives a 10% damage buff to the next Summon.
• Titan gets summoned next. Titan has 3 GCD charges that now has a 1.5 GCD cast time has 2x increased base Potency. The primal attack now gives a vuln up to the initial target of the primal attack. Summoner gets an "Eikonic Influence" stack.
• Garuda gets summoned last. She has 2 GCD charges that are now hardcast for 2.5 seconds and has 3x increased base potency (much like the Ifrit GCDs from the system now). The primal attack now gives anyone standing in the circle a vuln up and a DoT that keeps getting refreshed if the target stays in the AoE.

Of course there's a lot more interactions other than those 3, and it all depends on the order of the summoning.

Like maybe if Ifrit gets summoned first there's really no buffs at all, then if he gets summoned second, then the Primal Attack has a DoT on the target, and if Ifrit gets summoned last then the primal attack is guaranteed a Crit/DH hit.

Or maybe we can also experiment with party buffs with the interactions as well. Maybe if Garuda gets summoned as a second primal, the party gets a massive movement speed ala Combat Peloton once she appears. Maybe Titan drops a mini shield to the party when he comes out etc...

Point is, you now have an option to stick with the old playstyle of Garuda -> Titan -> Ifrit, OR you can mix it up depending on what you need during the encounter. Options gets opened up, and there's now a skill ceiling while the skill floor is low.

[Teno]

I read the first few answers to OP's post, and I was puzzled. Did people really warm up to this empty, barebone gameplay ? Or did all the original summoners quit ?

[ZephyrMenodora]

Stuff

We will see how the class looks next expansion. I'm sure SE has more player data than 221 people from the forums. lol

Anyway not overly invested in arguing opinions, especially where I'd feel emotional enough to type in all caps with periods between each word. I'm having fun - more fun with the class than ever before so that's all I care about. But since I like how things are now I don't have to be all that concerned unless changes are being made by the devs.

[Payotz]

I really like this!! I would actually be more encouraged to learn more about optimizing if something like this was in game. That said, I wonder if this would be nearly enough for the hardcore players. I get the feeling this would be just as braindead as the current iteration of SMN.

No worries. I like scrolling up so I found your reply. And it's not really a matter of "nearly enough for the hardcore players" and more so "is it a good foundation?"

There's a lot of ideas like this that won't necessarily raise the skill floor (unlike my healing rework suggestions KEKW) but just opens up the jobs in general, and I think ideas like this is what the job design needs right now instead of just having the skill floor = skill ceiling design formula.

Hopefully they experiment in this direction rather than be content being cookie cutter soon.

[ZephyrMenodora]

No worries. I like scrolling up so I found your reply. And it's not really a matter of "nearly enough for the hardcore players" and more so "is it a good foundation?"

There's a lot of ideas like this that won't necessarily raise the skill floor (unlike my healing rework suggestions KEKW) but just opens up the jobs in general, and I think ideas like this is what the job design needs right now instead of just having the skill floor = skill ceiling design formula.

Hopefully they experiment in this direction rather than be content being cookie cutter soon.

I do appreciate the thought you put into this system. I'd be very interested in changes like this.

Personally I also want to summon Leviathan and flood the arena.

[Eorzean_username]

You may like it, and its perfect that way, your opinion is yours but I once again have to repeat. PEOPLE. ASKING. FOR. SKILL. CEILING. DON'T. INVALIDATE. YOUR. PLAYSTYLE. In the same way BLM has standard and non standard there is nothing wrong with people wanting SMN to be more, you can keep the simple playstyle and those who want more can try to squeeze more out of it that they currently can't.

Not the best example, since the broader playerbase very clearly continues to generally avoid BLM, because it's considered too difficult to manage and play correctly.

So in BLM's case, it absolutely is "invalidating" players — in this case, those who would like the "I'm a Wizard pew pew" classic "mage" fantasy, but cannot wrap their heads around how much anticipation, slidecasting, and plotting BLM requires to not become a completely-collapsed and near-useless mess in a real encounter.

However, that's championed as "okay" and a "gold standard Job" by skill-fixated players, because their needs are being met, so they think nothing is wrong — and thus react with hostility to the idea of changing anything about it.

I'm not trying to attack anyone, and I'm not saying anyone is wrong for appreciating BLM's more demanding, methodical, and subtle gameplay. I'm just stressing that it's very easy to become biased about, so to speak, "whose ox is being gored" — the reality is that someone is going to be unhappy in any outcome or scenario, because you're dealing with people who approach FFXIV in diametrically-different ways, and for diametrically-different reasons.

[Shougun]

Said in a few other threads but YOLO, I need a higher post count I guess...

I enjoy SMN at level 90, I really don't need a lot of buttons like some sort of keyboard maestro and probably actually enjoy smaller kits (like I generally am enjoying PvP kits more than PvE kits right now), but prior to 90 it was insanely simple that even me wanting to relax and I was like ... "huh"... lol. The level 86 passive mechanc imo should be brought WAY earlier into the job, and then something not insanely complicated added later. In terms of visuals this is the most pleased I've ever been with SMN, but a job isn't just visuals naturally.

Personally I'd like to see physik go and get replaced, I think when EW first released I was mentioning a charge system that is shared across the 3 primals. Might have a second ability that shares this mechanic in some way. So you have two abilities that are shifting at each summon, and have a mechanic to encourage different primal choices. I avoid the demi as they are on a fixed choice rotation and so planning specific effects is almost punishing.

The other comment was trying to add more flavor to each primal and potentially adding a whole new rotation of Ramuh, Levithan, and Shiva. An example of a passive system might be each cast with Garuda adds some movement speed, or Shiva has a frozen CC mechanic that causes attacks to potentially stun / interrupt the target.

If doing both change then one would be theme'd offensive and the other defensive (doesn't mean they don't deal damage). Set the cooldowns in such a way that you cannot have all the primals use the skill, balance the skills that there might be a better choice for a situation, may use force cooldown resetting mechanics to ensure players are using them (using consideration again to ensure it's not "always hold for Ifrit" or something). If needed a blatant system could be used, for example if you use the offensive for Ifrit then using it again next time will be less effective but using defensive would cause the buff negative to switch (can use offensive again next time, defensive is now less effective- creating an alternating pattern, but then also due to cooldowns and how Ifrit may shift in you rotation due to swiftcast- you wont always be using it on the same for each rotation). Design could have these buffs escape the primal they're related too, which could be cool and also further offset the ability to repeatedly use the same primals with the same skills (no double using a specific primal's skill either, no double ifrit).

Alternatively it could be another damage spell, but hopefully interesting enough lol. Some ideas, none of which I'm bound to and are there just to have some concept:

Offensive:
Ifrit: Erupting Nails - Creates a nail at your location with 50% hp, as you take specific actions it will heal the nail (nail takes massively less damage from raid wides, but like orange circles you'll want to avoid). Skill replaces itself while the nail is active to allow you to bring the nail to your current position (short cooldown). Perhaps the nails deal a very small amount of damage when near enemies, this damage heals the nail (but you run the risk of orange circles, so you have to be active in protecting it). Depending on how long this effect lasts (which all the skills should generally have a similar target duration / cooldowns that keep the job not cooldown drifting painfully), might have at 100% a second nail is created (first nail would become untargetable then). In fact I'd probably prefer that you can quickly make nails, and you end up with like 4 or 5 nails by the end if you did well. Once the spell effect ends you'll get a baby version of hellfire (or any other pretty effect lol). May manually initiate hellfire by using the primal attack move (Bahamut's ahk morn button). Damage bonus for having more nails substantial but perhaps not more than 25% (so like if we had 4 nails as max then 5% for the first 3 and 10% for the last one successfully managed).

A special visual effect, rather than hellfire- if we wanted one, might be each nail creates a copy of you that charges up and does an ifrit dash to the target (still using ahk morn button for activation), the animation fades you out as it gets closer to the target until it's a mini-ifrit, once very near the enemy the floor beneath them turns into plume (firery floor), that then explodes upwards into a flamestrike (think WoW / Wc3 Flamestrike spell). Timing and speed would be calculated to have each nail copy of you arriving at the enemy at the same time.

Garuda: Suparna Tether - Increases damage of the target by X% and self by Y% (y being smaller), up to a total of Z potency. Razor plume is summoned and explodes instantly if before the damage buff expires you reach cap. Every cast you make will grant both players movement speed bonus, every action the target does increases the duration of the movement speed bonus (up to some cap). Y is doubled when solo or all allies are dead (you become the target and the targetee).

Titan: Mountain Buster - Deals conal damage- with fall off damage (so the target gets damaged the most), interrupting all within the cone. Any interrupted enemy creates a weight of the land below that enemy. . each . . .


Defensive:
Ifrit: Incinerating Bulwark - target gains a shield that reduces incoming damage by X potency (if an attack was 200, 300, 400, and X was 100, all would only be reduced by 100, a 100 potency attack would be negated), up to Y potency. While the effect is active the ally gains thorns (immolation) dealing damage to nearby enemies per reduction, every spell the summoner cast causes immolation to gain Y (lasting longer). If the up to Y potency is used up before buff duration it will still stay, as you can recharge the buff so long as it's there. An idea I have tried to pass into a SCH rework that I'm thinking might work here too is a subversion of AoE and single target rotation- so here the immolation pulse would deal more damage for single target spells, and deal more single target damage at AoE. Why? Because it changes your style, in this situation for this specific spell you'd be casting AoE spells for the duration of the crown.. and that's kind of different. So like single target cause immolation to pulse X potency to nearby enemies, AoE causes immolation to deal X * 2 to the first target and 25% to remaining targets.

Garuda: Chirada Tether - Actions by the other player heals the opposite, so if you attack you heal your tether buddy, if your tether buddy attacks they heal you - both players can be healed up to X. Standing in slip stream increases potency of slipstream itself up to Z. Both players completing the up to x value spawns a spiny plume that explodes immediately for both tethered players reducing damage (to the tether buddies only) and increases damage of both players up to Z (same shared number as slipstream, so there is a balanced maximum). Like the other tether you become the target and targetee (solo or all players dead).

Titan: Bombskin (please come up with a better name lol) - shield that deals damage at expiration (whether that is time or shield was used up), more damage if the shield was consumed by enemy attacks instead of time. May also use a combination of shield and % damage reduction for some tank buster value. Like 300 potency shield (based on INT.. NOT MND...!! lol), and reduces incoming damage by 10% up to 500 potency.


They're loosely put together, especially values I actually listed (potency), but just some ideas to get thoughts going. If I was going to be very serious I'd write down each primal's "theme / best use case" and then ensure there is a use case but also a system that ensures you can't always use "most damage" (damage always best use case! lol). A thought to reduce skill drift, and potentially add some variety, is that these skills activate for the NEXT primal as a pre-buff. That way the timers are quite fixed. Would reduce player self choice though. For example I intentionally listed per action on defensive ifrit, who has low APM, as I wanted players to think about titan and garuda - and I'd be okay with it being useable during Ifrit (as this would reward players choosing good choices), just need to ensure the use of charges, cooldowns, resets, and other mechanics are going to be lined up to prevent huge drift problems then.


Anyway... I'd be fine if we don't get more buttons, I could use even more condensing haha... but it would be nice to have some more abilities that you are thinking about- especially pre 86. If anything I would encourage keeping the job smaller amount of total buttons, I think that is an interesting benefit / selling point. SMN potentially being the most PvP like kit PvE job.