On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Brinne]

whistles

This sure went places, fast. Not sure how to feel about this one, all honesty.

I just noticed an opportunity I missed before for WIFECHAT, the only topic that truly matters, so:

I get what Sanna is saying broadly, I think - and it's true that, and a part of my appreciation reflects that, a lot of the times, the motives for an "evil mother" figure is going to be directly, intrinsically tied to her motherhood, always painted as the core of her identity, whether in a negative or positive way. But Athena's actual reasons and motives for being evil weren't actually tied up in Erich himself - her cruelty towards him is in purely treating him as a mere method, completely incidental, disposal, and irrelevant to her internal world one way or another, which is also linked to the lack of where you'd normally see things like, yes, "womb symbolism" and the like. (Instead, Athena gets poison/parasite symbolism in Abyssos, which is absolutely awesome and I could freak out about it in an absolutely embarrassing way.)

In other words: yes, indeed. My wife is, in fact, perfect.

[SannaR]

I just noticed an opportunity I missed before for WIFECHAT, the only topic that truly matters, so:

I get what Sanna is saying broadly, I think - and it's true that, and a part of my appreciation reflects that, a lot of the times, the motives for an "evil mother" figure is going to be directly, intrinsically tied to her motherhood, always painted as the core of her identity, whether in a negative or positive way. But Athena's actual reasons and motives for being evil weren't actually tied up in Erich himself - her cruelty towards him is in purely treating him as a mere method, completely incidental, disposal, and irrelevant to her internal world one way or another, which is also linked to the lack of where you'd normally see things like, yes, "womb symbolism" and the like. (Instead, Athena gets poison/parasite symbolism in Abyssos, which is absolutely awesome and I could freak out about it in an absolutely embarrassing way.)

In other words: yes, indeed. My wife is, in fact, perfect.

Yes that's was what I was aiming at. As a lot of the time if a woman wants a butt load of power even if said power isn't going to be used for bad stuff the "agreement with the devil" normally ends up with her needing to give up the ability to have a kid as most often adoption is never given any thought. But then why should she when that deal also made her a cold hearted, emotionless, Scrooge at the start of the book type of person. Or they also take away her beauty cause for whatever dumb reason beauty is tied into a woman's want for having kids. So, when Athena got power and had a kid and her emotional state was always like that? I went good they didn't go that route and then went oh damn I like her wings.

[Brinne]

I went good they didn't go that route and then went oh damn I like her wings.

Her wings are marvelous, aren't they? I'm actually a huge fan of Athena's design in general - I love how mundane it is, how she was built out of generic character creator assets, asides from the eyes. Even her body language is "plain" and to the point, memey-head-tilt aside. When we were playing Abyssos, my friend described her as a "mousy librarian"-looking type when she was first revealed. It's perfect.

She is perfect.

And Brinne, you have far more patience than I could ever hope to have.

I've kind of gotten accustomed to the idea that the way I process stories and characters can be a little weird to some people in fandom, so if someone seems likely to be genuinely unused to that mode of thinking as opposed to operating out of bad faith, I... I try, at least! (I probably do not always succeed.) Well. I... try to try?

Good thoughts, by the way, even if I don't have much of anything to add at this point!

Perhaps SE thought if they went that direction it would make Venat too innocent when they wanted the conflict to be grey.

Given the in-universe writing around Venat - the presentation of her flashback montage, accompanied by Answers, and her 'journey' post-Sundering paralleled directly with the Warrior of Light themselves, the way other characters talk about her, the dialogue options provided, things like her minion description, and even things like, in Q&A, Yoshi-P mentioning that one of the goals was to "show she wasn't a bad guy," my impression is honestly the opposite.

They were trying to make Venat as "white" as possible, but one of the main strategies they were relying on, by way of having her keep her and only her keep her memories, was to give her this close relationship to "you" that spanned eons, and establish that she was largely doing this all out of love for you in hopes that would win her over to players and establish her benevolent intent.

This is a strategy that is generally wildly successful with most NPCs - people loved Haurchefant, G'raha, and even to a degree, Emet-Selch himself because they all adored you and that moved people and made them want to respond to that affection. I would say that by and large it succeeded with Venat, too. However, the simultaneous backlash that accompanied Venat because they genuinely did not think through the other implications of her keeping her memories, yet nothing changing, was something they probably didn't see coming. (Similarly, I really doubt they thought through the full implications when they wrote in Emet alluding to Venat deliberately allowing the Unsundered to escape in order to conjoin the timelines.)

And then when it did, in response they threw together the Omega side-quest as quickly as possible in time for 6.15, lmao. Which hey, I did appreciate for what it was.

[Lunaxia]

She is perfect.

On Athena, I have to admit - and I hasten to add with nothing whatsoever against anyone who does enjoy her and/ or her character model - I couldn't help but laugh when I saw her phase change and how they attempted to engineer in elements of the eldritch abomination concept I'd hoped for but in the most inoffensive and unobtrusive manner to her original design as possible so as not to mar her appearance and turn her into something potentially [gasps] off-putting.

Women can't escape the constraints of societal standards of beauty even when ascending to a higher plane of godhood in a fit of delusional narcissistic grandeur! Alas!

(And I think you're very successful at that, you're too modest!) Oh, and thanks - I inevitably feel like I'm repeating myself or what's already been reiterated all too often for what comes down to the same fundamental points, but if it potentially opens up a worthwhile discussion, then it's served a good purpose.

[Brinne]

On Athena, I have to admit - and I hasten to add with nothing whatsoever against anyone who does enjoy her and/ or her character model - I couldn't help but laugh when I saw her phase change and how they attempted to engineer in elements of the eldritch abomination concept I'd hoped for but in the most inoffensive and unobtrusive manner to her original design as possible so as not to mar her appearance and turn her into something potentially [gasps] off-putting.

Women can't escape the constraints of societal standards of beauty even when ascending to a higher plane of godhood in a fit of delusional narcissistic grandeur! Alas!

(And I think you're very successful at that, you're too modest!)

Okay, I have to admit I actually didn't mind her regular boss model because it felt like another note of "...so are they doing the Parallel on purpose, or...?"

That being said, when her Savage form was revealed, I was totally: "Ah yes, there's my girl!" (Yes, it did still keep her "beautiful" form unchanged, granted. But boy were those some. Additions. Listen, I enjoyed joking about the hilarious implications of her preferences since P8 with poor Hephaistos, so at least her phase change revolving around that felt, ah, consistent.)

[Lunaxia]

Okay, I have to admit I actually didn't mind her regular boss model because it felt like another note of "...so are they doing the Parallel on purpose, or...?"

That being said, when her Savage form was revealed, I was totally: "Ah yes, there's my girl!" (Yes, it did still keep her "beautiful" form unchanged, granted. But boy were those some. Additions. Listen, I enjoyed joking about the hilarious implications of her preferences since P8 with poor Hephaistos, so at least her phase change revolving around that felt, ah, consistent.)

Hah, inured as I am to depictions of women in media, it never crossed my mind to think it was anything other than a commonality shared by virtue of simply being female and adhering to the unspoken rule that all female boss encounters must emphasise that fact.

Preferences? ...perhaps I'm better off not knowing. (...or perhaps I already somewhat know, but would like to enjoy the ignorance that comes with uncertainty.)

By the way, I am curious, being that you're very much a fan and enjoyed Pandaemonium from that perspective: did you find the resolution to Athena's arc satisfying in terms of how it connected to what had been set up over the course of the previous two tiers? Did you find the disease/ parasite symbolism to be well-utilised?

[Brinne]

Hah, inured as I am to depictions of women in media, it never crossed my mind to think it was anything other than a commonality shared by virtue of simply being female and adhering to the unspoken rule that all female boss encounters must emphasise that fact.

Preferences? ...perhaps I'm better off not knowing. (...or perhaps I already somewhat know, but would like to enjoy the ignorance that comes with uncertainty.)

By the way, I am curious, being that you're very much a fan and enjoyed Pandaemonium from that perspective: did you find the resolution to Athena's arc satisfying in terms of how it connected to what had been set up over the course of the previous two tiers? Did you find the disease/ parasite symbolism to be well-utilised?

Yes, I did! As I've mentioned, I went into Anabaseios petrified they might "ruin" what I liked about her in Abyssos, and while I understand reservations about the influence of the Heart of Sabik, I truly did think her presentation was overall a wonderful surprise, and the almost emotional anti-climax by the firm assertion that no, there is nothing there - it almost felt like there was a certain awareness of the expectation of how a typical abusive mother trope might play out in media - was a delight. And I do want to say I adore her not just from the perspective of being a loveless mother and unrepentantly evil woman - she also kept that almost businesslike demeanor that I thought I picked up in Abyssos that seemed really interesting, and the sort of raw, earnest passion for science. Athena perceives herself, and believes she conducts herself, as a true professional, and that also has a certain delightful appeal.

(I sort of want to mention another part of what I think made me feel Athena's integrity as a character stayed intact even with the Heart of Sabik thing - the question of Sabik's influence is introduced only partially through the raid, and alongside it is Erich wondering and questioning his father if it was possible things could have been different if not for the space rock. It's explicitly a question raised, to be answered later, because he doesn't get one at the time. That ambiguity still gnawing at him is exactly why he goes out of his way to question Athena in that last sequence, fishing to see if there is anything to hold on to, any reason to think things could have turned out differently, at least for their fundamental relationship as mother and son, if not for Rocks. And he gets his answer, and the matter is settled. And the answer is no. That's a subjective reading, but it's genuinely the one I got, I think.)

As for the symbolism - I think the imagery specifically in that regard was mostly resolved in Abyssos itself with the Hephaistos/Lahabrea arc, and the way she "poisoned" him to the point he had to break himself in half to keep her influence at bay. (And also that brief stint of invading Erich's thoughts to brainwash him via Hephaistos, arguably, since the brainwashing revolved around love for his mother.) I was actually very impressed even at the time with the relatively understated use of the symbolism, because it wasn't in your face - nobody stared into the camera and said "alas, my love for Athena was unto like a poison upon my soul" - and was therefore presented in a way there was that special joy when what was going on with the background visuals clicked into place for me, the recognition of a cohesive theming. But it was also consistent and prominent enough that it felt like, once you noticed it, there was also no mistaking it. Wonderfully executed.

But literal story aside, the symbolism is most interesting because it reflects, moreso than anything silly like "Athena magically brainpoisoned her husband and child!" - the dynamic of a toxic family, the struggle of the feeling of "poison" or "parasite" that clings even as you struggle with lingering feelings of affection, even as you know you "shouldn't" feel such things - as Erichtonios('s memory shade, yes, it is contrived, but for the purposes of the narrative and emotionally, still obviously meant to simply be a Cheat-Don't-Talk-About-It-But-Otherwise-Authentic version of Erichtonios) continue to do even in Anabaseios. Or, even more poignantly, even though we come to understand that Lahabrea truly loved Erich, Athena's "poison" was so horrific and all-consuming to their family that it warped their relationship that as a consequence of her abuse, Lahabrea ended up in a place where he also felt he had to, in a way, become an extension of his son's continued mistreatment in order to protect him from her.

Rot is a specific word used by Hegemone in her encounter (and part of the imagery invoked by Agdistis, too!) and it's really apt, because Athena's shadow rots away love that should have been something to treasure, should have been one of the forces that most supports a person, on multiple levels. And it doesn't destroy it, is the thing - it twists it. The love Lahabrea had for her, the love Erich had for her, and even the love between Lahabrea and Erich. It all rots and curdles under the weight of her toxicity.

Anabaseios left behind the poison symbolism a bit as a whole in favor of the heaven/hell and Venat symbolism, but Athena's Theos form is still insect-based, so it also wasn't entirely abandoned. And the final exchange between Athena and Erich could probably best be described as, ah, "venomous." But Erich's counter to Athena still reflected that consistent note of her seeping influence that corrupts and ruins, even in ways she didn't actually want. But while Erich "overcame" her to reclaim his own agency, and even declare he had found his own family, that lingering element of him manifesting again to stare at her as she died with that last bitter exchange...

I'm not sure how to put it. It was a good, complex balance. He overcame her and it was truly triumphant, so I'm not trying to and absolutely don't want to undermine that, but it's also not like he also chose to "walk away" in totality either, if that makes sense. Erich has a right to be venomous to his mother, to linger and steep a bit, and I'm glad he was allowed it. (He can have a little poison, as a treat.)

It was all really great. My wife.