Healers, then and now:

[Renathras]

When people talk about how CBU3 job developers don't know what they're doing with healers, that's another example. It shows how badly they have designed SCH in particular.

I don't think that's quite right. Specifically the "with healers" part. On SMN, Level 22 Summon Emerald does 400 potency damage to a single target. Level 45 Summon Garuda does 100 potency damage to targets in a circle. "Oh, it's an upgrade, it's just telling you that Garuda is your AOE summon. Level 50 Garuda, Titan, AND Ifrit do 600 potency AOE damage. "Oh. Uh........uh...well...uh...."

Clearly, it's not a CBU3 doesn't know Healers, thing. It's a "The game's been out for 10 years and the Devs have kind of decided that low levels and low level content doesn't matter, and so only do the must cursory of balance passes". And that's hardly a CBU3 thing. I don't know about now, but WoW did that for YEARS, and arguably still does. When people complained about it, the Devs outright said they only balance for level cap and up until then, things would be wonky and they wouldn't care.

I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, but I am saying this isn't an example of CBU3 being bad at Healers thing.

I think the reason Miasma 2 was removed was that it was seen as weird FOR THE AVERAGE PLAYER to have a spamable AOE nuke that is a DoT. And they seemed to also be trying to fight button bloat, so they wouldn't have, for example, wanted Art of War AND Miasma 2. Of course, then it was pointed out to them at SCH now had NO AOE OPTIONS, something they should have realized before, not after, Miasma 2's removal. But I think at the time they weren't designing the game around "2 mega pulls, boss, repeat". Indeed, before ShB, there weren't the 2 pulls/wall/2 pulls/wall/boss/repeat setups to dungeons. We kinda play that way now, but dungeons before were a lot more variable, even if they were still mostly hallways. Some you could pull everything up to the next boss, some you had multiple barriers or even semi-time gated events like Amdapor's "Crash Down" 4x Demon Walls or the one Garlean dungeon with the moving platform your party rides as it goes to pick up more trash packs, not letting you mass pull them all. Even as late as mid ShB this was true in some cases, like riding Bismark. Something they've technically repeated this patch with the Garlemald dungeon riding the vehicle at the start.

The worst part about Miasma 2 to me is that contrasted with the other 3 Healers NOW, SCH and SGE have the exact same AOE spam spell. Instant cast, AOE, centered on the caster. Mechanically they're the same. VERY technically, SCH is the highest AOE damaging Healer (I guess this is supposed to be something related to them being tacticians/military officers), but mechanically, it makes them and SGE identical other than the visual effect. Miasma 2 would actually make them more distinct.

So I don't think the Devs were thinking in terms of "pull all the things then AOE spam them to death", it's just the way people were kind of playing, even then. Tank Stance/Damage Stance doesn't make sense in a world of "aoe kill all the things in a spam fest", either. I'm trying to remember when they removed Flash and gave PLD Total Eclipse at low level (it was originally added at level 40-something, I think; and that's when it WAS added, as I remember when I leveled my PLD in ARR, I had to spam flash and single target rotate cycle through enemies.)

On the topic of light or heavy damage, it really just comes down to semantics.

The problem with saying "it just comes down to semantics" is when you're using word choices that overstate your case - that is, the argument cuts both ways. If you're using words by one definition to overstate your case, but someone points out that the words don't mean that, then a semantics defense isn't relevant since the argument was based on them having a specific definition. If I said playing a Healer in FFXIV is challenging because you have this DPS rotation to upkeep" and you said "'rotation' typically doesn't mean 'just two buttons'", then me giving the "what I said was true...from a certain point of view" semantics response isn't helpful since I was using that as a key part of an argument or a point in favor of a larger argument.

That is, if it doesn't objectively mean something, it's not useful to say it in a discussion.

For my part, I prefer more precise language. Saying "they do minor damage" is objectively false. To say "they do damage our oGCD kits can easily cover" is true...but is a VERY different argument. It's saying they still do serious damage, but we have toolkits that can easily correct for it. It's the difference between "Healers are easy" and "Healers are unneeded". (And given this latest 24 man actually does have enrage mechanics, the typical 4 man argument of "any single tank could solo this" isn't actually true.)

I guess my point is - if it's just a matter of semantics, probably best not to say it that way or not to bring it up? I dunno.

But it also means it's very easy for expert and master level healers can accomplish healing requirements with a fraction of their healing kit.

Right, but this is true of almost everything, in games and irl. It's why really good players make challenges for themselves, because once you've mastered a game beyond a certain point, no amount of organic challenge in the game is hard for you. FFTactics started the "only one Job" runs. Tons of games have advanced speedrunning communities. There are also the "random" run communities like Ocarina of Time but all the chest loot (every time you get a new item not story critical) is random, which may even make some combinations where you can't beat the game. There are a lot of variations of "one hand tied behind your back" that expert players use in literally every game that exists and has a dedicated community because, once you get good over a certain point, there's no organic challenges that are really going to break you anymore.

Which leads me to the point of viable healing tools. Because you're right, you do want more healing tools to feel viable all the time. Healing on an expert or master level renders the majority of our healing tools as "unviable" or "unnecessary" currently, which amounts to the majority of actions each healer can access.

...eh...semantics again. "Majority"? High level SCH's don't use Physic, Succor (most likely), or Ruin 2, but they do use the rest of the kit other than...maybe Emergency Tactics? So that they DON'T have to use those buttons. High level WHM's don't use Cure 1, Cure 2 (mostly), Medica, Medica 2 (mostly), Regen (mostly), or Cure 3 (mostly). I think WHM is the worst offender here, honestly, but it doesn't help that it has a Cure 2 (two of them, actually) and Medica that are DPS neutral vs the GCD cast time ones which are not. But in neither the SCH nor WHM cases are they the majority of their abilities.

That is, the GCD heals we don't use are still a minority of our toolkit. I don't even think you can say semantics on this one, because it's by definition mathematical. Glare, Dia, Solace, Rapture, Misery, Assize, Asylum, Plenary Indulgence, Tetragrammaton, Benediction, Raise, Holy (for AOE), Presence of Mind, Liturgy of the Bell, Temperance, Thin Air, Divine Benison, Aquaveil. That's a lot more abilities than Cure 1 and Medica (the only two that have no practical use at level 90), or even if we include the other 4. [Note I'm not including Role Actions, but even there, half of those - Swiftcast, Surecast, and Lucid Dreaming - get frequent use.] And WHM is the worst offender at this. The other Healers all have even smaller ratios of "never use vs use".

That isn't saying there's still not a problem - every ability that takes up a hotbar spot should have SOME use, even if rare. The only time Medica makes sense over Medica 2 is if your party is taking multiple hits of damage, every AOE heal oGCD is on CD, you have no Lilies, the party is over 10y apart but less than 15y apart AND you're in the center of them all, and you only have some multiple of 900 MP and that multiple is 2,700 or less. An extremely specific case that is unlikely to ever occur. In any other case, using Rapture, oGCDs (particularly Lilybell), Medica 2 + Cure 3 spam, or even Medica 2 spam outright, are all better options. Cure 1 IN THEORY has a place if you're super low on MP and/or if you need to heal a target in less than 2 seconds to prevent a death AND Cure 1's healing is sufficient to do so AND all your other instants or oGCDs are unavailable or cannot do the job alone without that little bit extra from Cure 1.

Benefic 1 is totally worthless, though, unless the case all the above is true AND you have less than 700 MP, since in literally any other use case, Benefic 2 would do the same thing but better.

This is why the main argument I and several others continue to bring up is having things that are always useful regardless of whether or not healing is needed,

I think the problem here is (a) what those are, (b) how much it forces players to use them (there's a difference between having OPTIONS like the Aero/Ruin 2 cases in ancient times vs nowadays where optimal is required or you're bad), (c) and if it's forced onto Jobs unorrgannically in ways that don't make much sense with their history or design.

Like I've said many times (basically, in ALL of these discussions) that SCH clearly needs some of its SB kit back. I'm not sure what to trade out for it, but it needs something.

I've also said in every one of these discussions that SGE needs a more involved DPS kit. The fact that all of its damage tools generate healing which it augments with oGCDs screams for a DPS kit to play through while you're healing is passive. Not to mention there are a lot of players that really really enjoy that playstyle. WoW's Discipline Priest became very popular because it healed this way. RIFT's Chloromancer was a popular healer with players because it healed this way. It doesn't always make such classes top or meta, but in terms of "some people have a lot of fun with them", some players...well...do.

FFXIV's combat design is too rigid to have things like a Blood Mage Healer, but it can absolutely have a heal by doing damage Healer since that can be tuned. In a game like WoW, a Disc Priest might do less healing than its peers on average but bring more damage to the table or something. In FFXIV, the balance is too tight for that, but fortunately, the Kardia splash healing + oGCDs could be tuned to roughly match another Healer like WHM to keep the party alive when used properly and the damage tuned to be roughly equal to another Healer as well when the DPS rotation is performed correctly. What changes isn't the output, but rather the playstyle, so that players that find that type of gameplay appealing have access to it.

I think we all agree (though some don't want to QUITE say it as such because they fear the 4 Healers model, but I think we all recognize it) that the biggest problem with Healers today is that they ALL PLAY THE SAME.

If one played like this but the others all played differently, some people would still complain, but the complaints would be far less. It just shines a big spotlight on things when there's no getting away from them. If we had all the Healers we do now like we have them now, but somehow "Scholasticate" Job slipped into the game under the radar as SB SCH with up to level 90 abilities, tons of people would, indeed, jump all over that. We're also seeing this with Tanks right now, since they're being more and more homogenized.

Similar performance isn't a problem, and simple Jobs aren't a problem. The problem is when everything plays the same; whether they have the same damage or different or whether they're simple or complex. Old MMOs that had good healing systems often had different Healers that actually worked and specialized in different ways - from dealing damage to using barriers to being plain vanilla. Diversity in this sense is a good thing.

Cure 1 - Make it instant cast, and attach Esuna to it. It's niche, but it merges two already very infrequently needed tools into one action and makes it easier to use when needed.

The problem with this is that Esuna is a Role ability. Though we could just remove it and make it tied to each Healer's base Cure spell (Cure 1, Physic, Benefic 1, Diagnosis); though that would preclude us removing those buttons, but would remove Esuna, so...I guess it's a sidegrade type thing.

Cure II - Make it instant cast, and have the potency scale with the target's missing HP. It's not DPS neutral, but a much more effective tool at rescuing a single party member.

I'm not sure making Cure 2 into Essential Dignity is the answer... Cure 2's POWER is fine. It's CAST TIME is fine. Those aren't its problems. Its problems are that it's not DPS neutral (biggest problem) and (much much smaller problem) its MP cost. This solution doesn't address either of Cure 2's actual problems. We have ample instant cast heals on WHM, so we don't need yet another, and we have a Fullcure, and Cure 2 already has a pretty high potency. Like...how high would the potency scale to? Essential Dignity scales from 400 up to 900. Cure 2 already has 800 potency. It's the most powerful non-Benediction heal that WHM has. More power isn't really what it needs, and if the scale doesn't start with 800 at the bottom, this would actually be a nerf to the spell, not making it better.

Medica - Replace it with an upgraded new spell that's instant cast, restores HP in an AoE with light potency, and also deals neutral damage to nearby enemies, like a GCD Assize with a high MP cost. Lily heals are more efficient for viable, DPS neutral healing tools, especially because Misery can be used to gain DPS, but this makes it a potentially viable tool for when lilies have run out, and gives you another tool to use with Thin Air.

I'm not sure if I like or dislike this one. I think I actually like this one (and this IS making it DPS neutral - and also AOE...interesting, but wouldn't that be a damage gain over Holy unless Holy did the same damage on a single target that Glare does?), though Roe had convinced me to just have Medica upgrade into Medica 2, so...

Cure III - Make it instant cast with an even larger radius, and also scales with the target's missing HP. Still a DPS loss, but an even better emergency tool.

Again, what's the scale from/to? If it starts below 600, it's a nerf, and if it goes above 600, it's a buff to what is already the most powerful AOE heal in the game. Cure 3 is one of the few WHM GCD tools that I don't think actually needs much changing or even being DPS neutral. It's a super niche ability, but when it's useful, it's really useful. It's okay for there to be some niche abilities. The problem is when there are USELESS abilities. Cure 1 is arguably useless. Cure 3 is niche. It's like people that argue Cover should be removed. Cover still has niches, they're just high end niche uses. And that's okay.

Regen and Medica II - Replace both of these with one OGCD ability that makes your next GCD heal apply a regen that's stronger on single target spells. It makes it so that you can add regen effects to your afflatus heals, or this upgraded Medica button. You could even do something fun like make Aero/Dia tics have a chance to shorten the cooldown by a few seconds, making your DoT feel more connected to your gameplay rather than just being a DoT for DoT's sake.

This, on the other hand, I hate.

I like modifier abilities (Emergency Tactics, Eukrasia), but while I HATE HATE HATE DoTs...I love HoTs. Always have. To me, that's the thing Healers should be doing in downtime. I loved "rolling HoTs" across parties or even entire raids in WoW on Resto Druid. It was one of the reasons I loved Druid more than the other Healers. It really fit with the druid/nature theme of "regrowth", and I've always loved them as a mechanic. Resto Druid had several. A standard one that was instant cast, MP efficient, and did decent healing that you could put on everyone. One with a moderate heal on the front end that was a bit more expensive and a bit more an emergency tool, so you used this a bit more sparingly, though it was often a good idea to keep it up on the Tank since the direct heal was almost always useful and keeping uptime on one target wouldn't tax your MP too much. A short (like 30 sec, maybe?) CD AOE HoT that started off powerful and tapered down towards the end. A good party heal that still felt unique compared to Holy Priest's Circle of Healing or Resto Shaman's Chain Heal. Had the Druid HoT feel. They had another mildly expensive HoT but that stacked to 3, and refreshing it refreshed the whole stack. But it could also only be on one party member at a time, so this was generally upkept on the MT for the raid. Their ultimate ability, Tranquility, was a super powerful area channeled 8 sec HoT that could pretty much fill everyone from close to 0% up to 800-100% health if used for the full duration, but had a long CD (originally an hour or something like that), so it was for emergency use only. Later it was weakened a bit and the CD shortened, and it may have been made party only (so in raids, didn't cover other raid members...I think it might have originally). Rounding things out, they had a relatively shortish CD button that they could use on someone to consume all HoTs on them to instantly heal for their full duration. This could be used (provided you kept HoTs rolling) for big snap heals, though due to the CD, couldn't be used all the time or chained for that purpose. Finally, they had a relatively strong, middling mana economy big heal on a long cast time.

It was honestly the most fun and most active and enjoyable Healer I've ever played in any MMO. Granted, you did no damage at the time - mana was far too precious to spend on damage spells on a Healer. That later changed (IMO for the better) when they made its spamnuke, Wrath, cost 0 mana. This meant that once you had your HoTs ticking and if nothing was going on that required any other healing, you could fill dead time by popping off a few Wraths. To this day, I think that was a fantastic decision, but the reason I don't say that was when the class was its best is because of the other changes that were forced at the same time - the Cataclysm "triage model" where they made heals overall weak because they were going to encourage a model "where you didn't top everyone off all the time and where leaving people below 100% health was sometimes the right thing to do". UNFORTUNATELY, no one told the encounter design team. So the result was that Healer kits could literally not keep people alive in some situations. It wasn't a matter of Healer skill, it was a matter of even regular dungeon runs coming to complete crawls or groups entirely disbanding. The 4.1 Troll dungeons were the most disbanding of parties I've ever seen in all of WoW's history that I played it. And it didn't matter what Healer you were on - I played Resto (and Balance) Druid at the time, along with Holy and Protection Paladin and Holy Priest. It was just...not good.

In any case, while I absolutely HATE DoTs, I absolutely LOVE HoTs and always have. I will never support an idea that reduces HoT availability (I'd prefer the opposite, actually; I'd love for Regen to generate 1/3rd Blood Lily SO I COULD CONSISTENTLY USE IT), and I especially don't endorse it if it means EVEN MORE reliance and focus on DoTs.

Of all the ideas you listed here, this is, specifically, the only one I abjectly HATE. Like, not on an objective, rational level. On a highly emotional, visceral level. I actually am mildly upset at even reading it, honestly. I know that's not your intent, I'm just telling you the depth of which I actually, REALLY hate that one idea.

- Afflatus Solace and Rapture - Give them a cast time. This makes the instant cast nature of your Cure spells more valuable in certain scenarios. Your optimal heals are no longer the easiest ones to use, but not hard to use either.

Given that the Lilies as they are are arguably the best thing that's ever happened to WHM, I think it's the one thing that we SHOULDN'T be tinkering with. Of all the Healer kits right now, Solace/Rapture/Misery as they are is the one thing that seems to be working exceptionally well and that everyone's enjoying and agreeing is a good system.

...this one I'm opposed to on objective and rational reasons, btw, not emotional visceralism. While I HATE your limiting HoT/more DoT idea (if I wasn't clear on that... ), your giving Lilies a cast time idea is...just a bad idea. Remember that Solace and Rapture are limited by resource generation. If they were up all the time, this might be a valid argument. Like imagine if we the choice was of "cast this 300 potency AOE/800 potency single target heal and you get damage refunded, but if you use the instant, you do not", then that's a tradeoff - damage for mobility. If both were up all the time, then you would make that choice. Cure 2 if you need a big heal and the fight has time where it's safe for you to cast it; you get the damage refunded and this is optimal play. But if the fight is forcing movement on you and the Tank or party member needs a desperate heal, use InstantCure2 on them, you've saved them from KO and the party DPS drop as you Raise them, and you did so while getting movement freedom to your safe destination, but you aren't refunded damage.

Now you have an interesting choice. Can you "greed" the Cure 2/is it safe for you to use the Cure 2, or is it unsafe and you need to move but also keep the party member alive? In the first case, you do more damage, in the second case, you prevent the party's DPS from tanking with the potential party member KO (or yourself from taking damage if you stood too long casting Cure 2). That's an interesting choice. That's skill expression.

What you're proposing doesn't work for that, because Rapture/Solace aren't available all the time. They're still limited to Lilies, so it's only a "choice when you have resource". That makes it like comparing Broil IV vs Energy Drain instead of Ruin II vs Broil IV. The latter is an interesting choice because you're looking at competing alternatives. The former isn't since you can use them together and also since one is only even an option when the resource is available.

In short, the better alternative here would be to make your GCD heals with a cast time and MP cost (and possibly Regen) generate 1/3rd Blood Lily and to make Solace and Rapture NOT do so (they could either keep the 3 shared charge Lily system or get an MP cost, whatever), but the functionality here would be an active decision on the part of the player as to if they have time for the cast time spells (and thus better DPS) or if they need the movement/responsive heal instead (lower DPS, but in theory justified because standing and casting Cure 2 would reduce party DPS through either the Healer or their party member being KO/getting damage down, etc)

This would also make WHM play a bit more like BLM where you want to stand and turret when possible with heals that have cast times for optimal DPS, but where you use the instant casts if you need to move or deal with mechanics.

...I'm not saying that I would necessarily support that, but that's what would achieve what you're going for far better than what you propose.

Me personally, I think keeping Rapture/Solace like they are and letting GCD heals all generate 1/3rd Blood Lily as well as the optimal solution. It stops punishing healing, which is the objective. "But why have Solace/Rapture at all, then?" Simple, they cost no MP (MP management is still SLIGHTLY a thing for WHM, as we learned in 6.0 when 3x Lily + Misery weren't being used since they weren't damage neutral and WHMs were actually going OOM on long fights - 1600 MP a minute is actually a lot; 16% of your MP pool) and can be used for movement, but only a limited number (3) of times per minute. So the tradeoff there is do you use your Lilies now or save them for movement, and also do you keep using them often ENOUGH to not cause an overcap.

Still a choice, though a different kind of one, that allows for optimization while allowing use of standard GCDs as a more common component of your rotation and kit.

Though one of your changes that I like I would tweak thusly:

Medica 1 is changed to what Medica 2 is now. The potency is the same, cast time, just keep the MP cost 900.

Medica 2 costs 100 MP more than Medica 1 and does the Medica 1 heal (no HoT but same total 1 tick potency), but also does AOE damage, with 1 Glare's worth of damage to the first target and X% of Holy's damage to all other targets AND does NOT generate 1/3rd a Blood Lily like your other GCD heals. This way, it can be used sparingly in dungeons for easy healing but is a slight damage loss vs Holy (X% is enough to negate the extra first target damage across the rest of the targets, but is small enough to be mostly negligible when Holy becomes more powerful at, say, 3 or more targets; Medica 2 might be a slight DPS gain on 2 targets in this sense, but the MP cost would prevent it being used as such most of the time), but still a useful general tool, and damage neutral in both single and AOE scenarios in a general sense. Again, the steeper MP cost making it less preferred (if the healing isn't needed) than Holyspam, but not a severe damage loss if not. I dunno, the numbers can be tweaked since I'd do this in a lot more depth if I was seriously proposing it. But there's a way to do it well.

Why Medica 2 instead of Medica 1? Medica 1 is the one you're using to heal in low level dungeons as a starter player. So the advanced applications of a heal/damage balance aren't relevant and are more confusing. By the time you get Media 2, you're level 50 with a lot more content types (raids, etc) opening up. Alternatively, it could be a late game trait for Medica 1, but I tend to be more leery of traits changing major mechanics or rotations because that can lead to a lot of confusion (preo-6.3 PLD, your level 90 muscle memory actively betrayed you doing any content level 89 or less because of how going into Royal instead of Goring was bad play/DPS loss when you synced; BLM is NOTORIOUS for having its "optimal rotation" change every few levels and make it where max level BLMs hate doing synced content because their brains and muscle memory actively work against them, and if they do the low level correct rotation, it's bad practice and establishes bad habits for them when they go back to doing max level content - not to mention teaches leveling baby BLMs bad habits that they must break when they get to level cap)

.

In short, I don't hate all those, but some of them I REALLY hate, and I don't think it achieves the goal of making WHM more interesting nor of making active and meaningful choices. Further, it's tinkering with the ONE THING on Healers (collectively) that's actually working really well right now: WHM's Lily system.

So hard pass from me on those, I think. You could argue that it's part of the problem WHM has of not using its other GCD heals, but the point is, WHM is the only Healer that's actively rewarded for using GCD heals (Solace/Rapture ARE GCD heals) and it breaks up Diaspam, so on both the "Healers are for healing" and "Green DPS" fronts, it's the one that's actually somewhat working right now. The only one, really.

Again, SCH and AST are the Healers right now that need attention, not WHM.

Possibly SGE - it's been absent from this discussion as it has no history to compare against. So there is some argument for leaving it as it is, especially if we make SCH SB-SCH again [MSSbA], as that would already make SCH and SGE gameplay more distinct, which would be good. That is, changes to SCH would make SGE less of a "SCH clone" instantly, and SGE doesn't have a history of lost abilities for us to pine over where it WAS better but now isn't. And, for what it's worth, SGE does work decently right now and has more Dosisspam break options with Plegma, Pneuma, and Toxicon that SGE lacks now that Ruin 2 is an emergency tool only; Pneuma and Toxicon (the initial 3 stacks or generated from shields in downtime) are DPS neutral, and Plegma is a DPS gain.

The only change I feel SGE reeeeeeallllly needs right now is for Toxicon to be damage neutral (do 2x the damage it does) - since that would give SGEs actual choice about using their GCD shields (their GCD heals are still for emergency use only) and make them more distinct from SCH.

SGE is the only Healer right now that we can say "This is the way it's been since it was implemented". And for its faults and potential to improve, it's not a BAD Job as it is. It just feels stale and samey since SCH is EW SCH instead of SB SCH.

...oh, I absolutely have ideas for how to really change SGE up overall if desired (I've got at least 3 DPS rotation ideas for them, think they should have two more versions of Kardia to really flex that tool - one that is temporary and placed on a second target kind of like WoW Healadin Beacon of Light/AST Synastry but for Kardia heals, and one AOE one for party heals; both short durations that can be used as their first or second [after AG] line party healing and really encourage "healing by doing damage/being a DPS-lite" in the same way GNB is a "DPS-lite Tank" and a lot of people absolutely love that), but Toxicon being damage neutral would be big to start and honestly fix the one major glaring issue with its current kit. The change to where Eukrasia Prognosis breaking on the SGE generate an Adderssting now is half-way there. They just need to complete that process by making them generate Toxicons. WORST CASE scenario, people could break up the Dosis spam a bit, and best case, people actually have a viable gameplay style. "But wouldn't they just spam shields on everyone?" Nah, their MP can't support endless EuDiagnosis spam for fights of any appreciable length. Not to mention overwriting shields before they break would prevent Addersting generation anwyay.

.

But let's talk about how to get SCH and AST fixed first; we ALL AGREE that they need it. Then we can see how healing would work at that point before making additional moves.

[Deceptus]

The worst part about Miasma 2 to me is that contrasted with the other 3 Healers NOW, SCH and SGE have the exact same AOE spam spell. Instant cast, AOE, centered on the caster. Mechanically they're the same. VERY technically, SCH is the highest AOE damaging Healer

Sage has Pneuma, Phlegma, and Toxikon to put it above SCH in most AoE situations.

[Renathras]

Sage has Pneuma, Phlegma, and Toxikon to put it above SCH in most AoE situations.

Plegma I'll give you, though it's still based on a 40 sec CD.

Pneuma is a healing GCD with a rather long 2 min CD. For no good reason. I mean, yeah, it's powerful...but is it 120 sec powerful? And it even needs to be paired with Zoe (90 sec separate CD) to really be driven through the roof. I suspect at some point they'll either make Pneuma 90 sec or Zoe 120 to reflect that people tend to pair them, or make Zoe 60 so every other one can be paired with Pneuma while having one in between used on Eukrasia Prognosis (actually makes decently strong party shields doing this). But it's not really an AOE damage tool in a strict sense.

Toxicon is a DPS loss in general use. You're guaranteed (for 4 man dungeons) roughly one per wall-to-wall if you EuPrognosis the Tank before the pull, though you actually want to build 3 up for Boss fights. So you get the first three of the dungeon/zone-in for free, but for the second boss, you'll generate one from each of the wall-to-walls (2) and then one on the boss pull itself (3). So you're still only guaranteed roughly 3 per encounter, and they're only damage neutral (vs a Dosis) this way where Plegma is a damage gain. Alternatively, you burn them on the trash (which is actually more DPS for the 4 man total runtime) and only get the 1 during a boss encounter, generally used for movement (there's no reason to even put it in damage buffs since it's indistinct from merely casting a Dosis instead)

Though yes, I do agree that SGE has a few more tools to at least mix things up.

Seriously. I agree!

I think the one thing out of this thread is just how obvious SCH's changes being bad for it have been and HOW MUCH SO.

EDIT: That is, "Is a half-MP-price Cure 3 that cannot be spammed, has the range 5y more than a Medica 2/Affaltus Rapture, does roughly a Glare's worth of single target damage or a Holy's AOE damage, worth a 120 sec CD?" I dunno, maybe, but I feel like 60 sec would make it both more useful and a more often choice, as well as more reflect what you actually get from using it. But that's probably just me. The heal IS pretty powerful for SGE being supposed to be a Barrier/Mitigation Healer...but as we've seen with AST, that ship has sailed anyway. (That it can be boosted to 900 potency healing with the use of a SECOND 90 sec CD is irrelevant since Cure 3 can be boosted to 4x 800 potency AOE heals if we pair it with Plenary, and, if with 2x Thin Air on those 4 casts, has the same "half-MP-price" for the average of all 4. So WHM still wins this one either way.)

[ty_taurus]

think the problem here is (a) what those are, (b) how much it forces players to use them (there's a difference between having OPTIONS like the Aero/Ruin 2 cases in ancient times vs nowadays where optimal is required or you're bad), (c) and if it's forced onto Jobs unorrgannically in ways that don't make much sense with their history or design.

If we're talking about DPS tools, they're only as "forced" as you perceive them to be. You may look at adding something like a rotation, and the potential DPS optimization that comes with it and see additional requirements, but the game does not. All the game cares about is if the Boss' HP hits 0 and at least 1 person is alive, and that is a VERY easy bar to clear for almost all of this game's content. If having the ability to reach higher and not reaching higher is a problem to the individual, that's on them--not the game. The game doesn't care if your uptime is 98.91% or 78.25%. The game doesn't care if you clipped your GCD. The game doesn't care if you overhealed. The game doesn't care if you dropped your DoT for 20 seconds. Only you as the player can care so long as the fight is won.

If you want to talk semantics, then Dia is not something you are ever "forced" to use. Even in savage, you can very easily get a clear without maintaining your DoT. The overall impact Dia has isn't particularly large, because you only ever use around 20 casts of it across a savage fight anyway. Is it possible that it's the difference between a clear and an enrage wipe? Maybe, but it's very unlikely to be. Some players who may flog themselves over lost perfect is not something that is healthy to design a game around ever.

[Renathras]

If we're talking about DPS tools, they're only as "forced" as you perceive them to be.

No, that's nonsense and everyone kinda knows it. When not using a thing becomes "carry" or "enrage", then it ceases to be optional. It's also why even things that are alternatives need to be kind of close to the baseline best - if Holy Spirit baseline only did 50 potency of instead 250/just 30 less than Atonement, it wouldn't be a viable option anymore.

You may look at adding something like a rotation, and the potential DPS optimization that comes with it and see additional requirements, but the game does not.

THE GAME doesn't see anything. People need to stop presenting their personal opinion as the game's.

THE GAME also doesn't care if you have a 50 button rotation or a 1 button rotation.

If you want to talk semantics,

I really don't - you do. I was saying the "that's just semantics" defense is invalid if the meaning of words/word choice to overstate your case was actually part of your argument. That wasn't an invitation to do it more.

.

Damn, and we were having such a nice thread, too...

[ty_taurus]

Damn, and we were having such a nice thread, too...

I'm just engaging with the topic. If you don't want to get heated, then don't get heated. I'm not. There's no reason to get hot and bothered about what's being discussed.

My point is, no one is holding you at gunpoint and saying "if you don't engage with these actions in the most perfect way possible, you're going to get it." All that matters is that the content is clear. There's no additional trophy for having parsed the highest other than your own personal pat on the back. Very little is legitimately forced upon you. You're welcome to show me how I'm wrong if you can explain how not maintaining Dia or potentially any soft DPS rotation will prevent you from being able to clear any questline content in the game.

I really don't - you do. I was saying the "that's just semantics" defense is invalid if the meaning of words/word choice to overstate your case was actually part of your argument. That wasn't an invitation to do it more.

No, it's really not me who's arguing semantics. I'm not the one going "um, actually..." about how people phrase their points.

[Renathras]

I'm just engaging with the topic. If you don't want to get heated, then don't get heated. I'm not. There's no reason to get hot and bothered about what's being discussed.

I'm not hot and bothered about that. More annoyed that it's a side conversation you effectively started then said I wanted to have and took that as an invitation to have...when I was actually telling you NOT to have it.

from being able to clear any questline content in the game.

....

This. THIS is what makes me hot. This reframing - very narrowly to the point it must be intentional - so you can be technically right while being completely wrong.

At what point, in any of these discussions have I ever mentioned a concern about being able to clear questlines or story content in the game, friend? I'll answer that question for you: NEVER.

It has literally never come up at any point from me that I am concerned about being able to clear questlines. I don't even think questlines have ever been mentioned by anyone at all (not even Roe, who typically talks about MSQ vs Extreme and higher as her dividing line). This is a farcical retort of a strawman fallacy.

LITERALLY NO ONE is concerned about whether or not they can clear questlines. I've even pointed out most content below Extremes (and I guess 24 mans) can be cleared with autorun and a dipping bird on your keyboard. (A bit facetiously, but the point being it's never been a concern for anyone, least of all, me.)

This is a bit like someone saying that there's an escaped murderer on the loose and they're kind of afraid of being killed and you suggesting they get a nightlight since they're scared of a monster under their bed - when they aren't, and have never mentioned (those kinds) of monsters or their bed related to the topic.

It's such a bad straw man, I can't imagine you don't know better.

Please please PLEASE don't do stuff like that...

No, it's really not me who's arguing semantics. I'm not the one going "um, actually..." about how people phrase their points.

It's LITERALLY you arguing semantics. When you say "given how gentle and infrequent damage taken happens", someone pointing out it's not gentle isn't making a semantic argument. They're saying "It's not gentle".

Semantics is when you say something that's more or less the same. For example, if you said "fuzzy" and someone said "um, actually...it's FLUFFY, not FUZZY", that's much more of a semantic argument since there's a lot of overlap in those two words. "gentle" and "large relative to health pool spikes of damage that will kill people if they aren't healed" are not overlapping things. It's not a semantics argument at that point, it's a "why are you saying this thing that's wrong" argument.

It wasn't even directly that, it was me saying that I didn't get why people (in general, not you specifically) said that when it was objectively untrue by basically any known definition of gentle. I even offered an alternative if you were intractably inclined to say it anyway; that it was not gentle but was relatively easy to handle related to our tools. At that point, the proper answer would just have been "Yeah, basically that".

And then, when someone says it's not a semantics argument (because it isn't), using that as a gateway to open a semantics argument - to then say you don't want to have a semantics discussion when you're the one who brought up semantics AND are the one pressing us into a semantics discussion, and then/now tripling down on it by insisting I'm the one doing so when I've outright said the opposite and even declined to engage in one further...

...this is the kinda stuff you do that annoys me, man.

.

Anyway, can we get back to the actual topic, please? Not derailing it with strawmen and canards?

Though, I suppose there's little left to really say:

1) WHM is about in the place it's always been and the only changes it really needs are a 60 sec minor mitigation ability and optionally Aero 3/Banish (in a DoT or Plegma form) and/or some minor ability streamlining/combining (Cure 1 into Cure 2, for example), but is otherwise in a pretty good place, arguably, the best it's been in the game's history, but definitely from 4.0 to 6.3 the best it's ever been.

2) SCH is in a pretty bad place, for quite a few reasons. But the first things that need to happen are probably for Broil IV to go back to being at least a 2 sec (base spell speed) cast, Miasma 2 to be readded as a slight DPS gain over Art of War if the DoT is maintained on trash packs, Miasma as a 2 sec cast DoT to upkeep, probably with an 18 sec or so duration, and probably Bane to be readded as an AOE use Energy Drain. Collectively, this would make Broil IV still allow weaving (though with a clip since oGCD weaves take ~0.7 sec) for average players but using Ruin 2 optimizes it for skill expression, break up Broil IV spam with both Miasma refreshes and Ruin 2 for optimal oGCD weaving (as well as movement; Broil's longer cast time would also make it less useful for slidecasting - still some, but not as much), and an AOE rotation of Miasma, Bio-lateweave Bane, Miasma 2, Art of War x2-3, Miasma 2, repeat until Bio AND Miasma 1 need refreshing. SCH's healing kit is in good shape, so other than possibly combining a few things (Eye for an Eye into Protraction, Physic into...Adlo? I think Roe suggested that...) to ease the added button bloat, this would go a long way to helping it. [Broil IV could be made base 2.5 sec cast, but 2 sec does basically the same Job while also allowing a lower skill floor but higher skill expression for playing optimally; it doesn't make waving after Broil IV completely wrong, it just makes it less good but within a reasonable range of doing it right with a Ruin 2 + double weave)

3) AST needs...serious help with its side game. Cards need a complete rework, its burst needs to be a lot less clunky and annoying target switching, and either the Card side game needs to be made more complex and interesting (ideal solution) or its DPS kit needs to be expanded on (less ideal solution, but more ideal than things are now).

4) SGE is just kinda there...but if SCH actually changed like mentioned in (2), the two would feel a lot less samey.

I think that's the cliff notes version.

.

EDIT, doing that for SCH, the optimal DPS rotation would be:

T = 0 - Biolysis (expires 30)
T = 2.5 - Miasma (expires 20.5)
T = 5 - Broil (IV)
T = 7.5, 10, 12.5, 15, 17.5 - Broil
T = 20 Miasma (expires 38)
T = 22.5, 25, 27.5 - Broil
T = 30 - Biolysis (expires 60)
T = 32.5, 35 - Broil
T = 37.5 - Miasma (expires 55.5)
T = 40, 42.5, 45, 47.5, 50, 52.5 - Broil
T = 55 - Miasma (expires 73)
T = 57.5 - Broil
T = 60 - Biolysis (expires 90)
T = 62.5, 65, 67.5, 70 - Broil
T = 72.5 - Miasma (expires 90.5)
T = 75, 77.5, 80, 82.5, 85, - Broil
T = 87.5 - Broil OR Miasma option 1 OR Biolysis option 2 (early reapplication)
T = 90 - Biolysis option 1 OR Miasma option 2 if Biolysis applied at 87.5
T = 95.2 - Misama option 3 OR Broil if Miasma already applied

90 sec is more or less T=0, and so starts the cycle again, use Chain Stratagem on CD every 120 sec after the opener use, and during any of those long stretches of Broil substitute a Ruin 2 if/as oGCD weaves are necessary like Whispering Dawn or AF heals/abilities need to be applied, make sure to burn any remaining AF stacks on ED weaves with Ruin 2 if coming close to multiples of 60 sec, reapply Aetherflow using Bio (ideally every 0/60/120/etc cast will be Bio because it will allow a natural refresh spell to weave Aetherflow like clockwork)

There's a little weirdness when Miasma and Bio fall off at the same time, but this is going to happen for any multiples that aren't separate primes anyway, with said primes needing to still work with the 2.5 sec (adjusted by spell speed, of course) prime numbers. For example, 17 and 19 seconds will only rarely overlap...but the GCD doesn't allow 17 or 19 sec casts, it's 15, 17.5, or 20 unless you're late casting. And not refreshing them like that will cause drift anyway. So it's kind of a case of "meh, it's going to happen from time to time, so once every 90 sec having to let Miasma fall of for a sec or reapplying it a BIT early is just the best solution" (of the two, reapplying it a bit early at 87.5 is preferred; DoTs are DPS positive after about 1/3rd to 1/2 their duration, so being within the last tick is still a DPS gain in a general sense when the refresh would otherwise fall in between GCDs)

Anyway, it's workable, and in practice, the segments of 3-6 Broils (and 30 sec Biolysis instant cast) are when you'd try to work in pGCDs and Ruin 2 to actually break that monotony up, you'd just have some flex in when to do that while still not drifting/falling off your DoTs (obviously, emergency healing trumping DoT refreshes). The Broil segments are also where you'd do things like Adlo/Succor/Spreadlo if you needed to do so, and if you had to do critical healing or Raising that pushed your rotation, those would be the pockets that would absorb those changes.

For AOE, as noted, it would be Miasma, Biolysis, late-weave Bane OR wait for the next spell, Miasma 2 (weave Bane here if you're worried about ghosting/wiffing it), Art of War x3, Miasma 2, Art of War x3, Miasma 2, somewhere in here Bio would fall off (Miasma would fall off first, but the DPS optimal action would probably be waiting to reapply it with Bio and Bane them together again) so Miasma (GCD before then) reapply, Biolysis reapply, Miasma 2/Art of War (whichever is next) weave Bane, go back to Art of War/Miasma 2 alternating rotation.

Not HYPER complex, but we don't do THAT much AOE in the grand scheme of things, and this is already at least 5 times as complex as "Art of War, Art of War, Art of War, Art of War, Art of War, weave an Energy Drain in here somewhere", which is what we have right now. Not to mention even DPS Jobs don't tend to have a super complex AOE rotation in most cases anyway, and most Tanks have ~3-4 button AOE rotations. So this would fill the bill nicely.

[ty_taurus]

Whatever, I really don't care.

I just don't understand why you'd go out of your way to derail your own thread to try and "correct" a post that wasn't even directed toward you and then blame me for it.

[ForsakenRoe]

For SGE, if the changes were made to 'how you can optimize your healing via appropriate use of 'augmenting skills', with Prognosis spam as the 'fallback' if needed', I think it'd be 100% justifiable to keep the DPS options for the class relatively similar, since the 'complexity' would be from juggling when to PanKardia/Zoe/Krasis/Soteria, and what combination of those you'd need to use to deal with the healing requirement. And with the basic kit's two halves boiling down to 'Dosis/E.Dosis/Phlegma for damage' and 'Diagnosis/Prognosis/Eukrasian versions to shield' for healing, it'd remain very 'new to healer' friendly, especially if all of what I suggested was implemented, as it'd mean Prognosis (the regular version) spam would cost zero MP, so there'd be no need to panic about MP economy in a pinch.

Evoker in WOW isn't 'technical' because it has loads of DPS buttons. It has Living Flame (also functions as their crappy cure 1), Azure Strike (their ruin 2 kinda), Disintegrate (costs same resource as some healing tools do), Flame Breath (25s CD), and Deep Breath (2min CD). 'DPS rotation' is very much a 1 button affair a lot of the time. It's how those few buttons interact with the healing that makes it 'technical'. So with a good healing kit that interacts well with the damage tools, SGE doesn't necessarily 'need' more damage tools. It can get by with the few it has. As long as the healing behind it is interesting enough.

I think SGE does need 'some' changes, because it's based on 'the current state of SCH'. If SCH changes, SGE is left behind, and that's not good. But we can move it in a different direction if needed, where the other healers get back some DPS options, SGE could have 'the path to accessing it's optimal healing' as it's skillcap. And it'd fill a concept that isn't being explored much in these brainstorms, that of 'make healing more interesting'. Whether you agree or disagree on how I'd do it, you'd surely have to agree, that it'd at least 'make healing more interesting', even without it having any impact on what we do for our damage rotation. The only thing I changed for the 'damage rotation' is Toxicon being actually interesting, and E.Diag shield breaks being 'a bit closer to damage neutral'. Oh yeh and the AOE DOT-er with the E.Phlegma, but that only applies at 2+ targets and how often does SE make a raid fight with 2 targets? Or more accurately, '2 targets where you can actually damage both' since they love to limit you to one target with stuff like Firewall (TOP/O12S) and 'Hated by flame' or whatever it was called in E6S. Only one that comes to mind as 'actually 2 target fight' is BJCC. Even then, looks like my idea has E.Phlegma at 475x2 (950) vs Reg Phleg at 600/300 (so, 900), so it's not that big a deal really

Oh yeh and before anyone goes 'oh but then you HAVE to do the augment gameplay to clear stuff, using E.Prognosis would be griefing and cause you to be unable to clear anything', my first clear of P8S (week 2 by the looks of it? so, before the nerfs) I apparently cast 14 E.Progs. I imagine if this idea went live, there'd be a similar level of leniency regarding how many GCDs the healers can drop to 'safety shield' stuff. Even if I were to cover all that shielding with perfect 'augment gameplay' from this idea, it'd buy me 14 more Dosis casts. And with the 'average damage from Dosis' being listed in the log as exactly 13k, that'd be 182k. Sounds like a fair bit, but I've seen Hyosho's hit for more than that so it's not the most gamechanging amount of damage. It'd help, sure, but I'd assume in week 1/2/3 levels of gear, there's going to be times where there's not actually enough room between raidwides to 'set up' and you'd be 'forced' into using E.Prog because it's faster to deploy at it's full strength compared to the slower ramp-up of the augment>shield gameplay

[NobleWinter]

Playing Scholar since ARR has given me a very strong impression of how the gameplay has shifted and for the worse. Heavensward felt like a huge upgrade with the addition of more oGCD healing to weave allowing for Ruin 2 and Miasma 2 to shine. I liked that job had me actively engaged with all the timers for both healing cooldowns and DPS. You couldn't just spam medica 2 or cure 2 and win and the DPS definitely required juggling a lot of different sources. Entering Stormblood we lost the Shadowflare GCD but gained Quickened Aetherflow and this caused more Energy Drains and reasons to use Ruin 2 and Miasma 2. The pacing of different skills on the DPS rotation was still really fun to me. It wasn't just spamming broil. It was Shadowbringers where the Scholar gameplay felt like absolute garbage. Removing Quickened Aetherflow, all Selene's Abilities, Miasma 2 and any reason to use Ruin 2, along with Bane and Miasma disappearing, plus the loss of Shadowflare (even if it was already less fun as a 60 sec cooldown ability) was just too much. Numerically it was more powerful than ever and I still hated it. In the causal content I enjoy you're going to spend most of your time doing damage as a healer and our kits just don't make sense for the light sporadic outgoing raid damage and long dull periods of "helping" to kill the enemy. Scholar never had a 30 second dot and it really made me regret buying the expansion when we lost 4 shorter dots (Bio, Miasma, Miasma 2, and Shadowflare) in exchange for one massively long one. I didn't main Scholar for 5 years to be treated like Astro.