Did SE threaten to not make ultimates anymore?

[Raven2014]

I got a question that i cant wrap my head around.

Because completion of the task isn't the goal, it's the reward that came with the completion that is the main goal. So if there is a way to "skip" the task and still reap the reward, most human will take that option without blinking.

[RyuDragnier]

Because completion of the task isn't the goal, it's the reward that came with the completion that is the main goal. So if there is a way to "skip" the task and still reap the reward, most human will take that option without blinking.

Because they're weak willed chumps that can't handle failure.

[Absimiliard]

Except you really don't need an overly high level of skill to complete Ultimate either. It's still just basic memorization with some pattern recognition and spatial awareness tossed in, same as all the other content in the game. With enough time, you will complete it if you keep pushing for it. Being able to memorize the entire fight in a short period of time and react to mechanics as they come out, yeah, that's some skill. But to say they take more skill than savage? Nah. Just more time.

[Raven2014]

Except you really don't need an overly high level of skill to complete Ultimate either. It's still just basic memorization with some pattern recognition and spatial awareness tossed in, same as all the other content in the game. With enough time, you will complete it if you keep pushing for it. Being able to memorize the entire fight in a short period of time and react to mechanics as they come out, yeah, that's some skill. But to say they take more skill than savage? Nah. Just more time.

Respectfully disagree. This is like saying remembering the multiplication and remembering numerical theory formula is the same 'cause they're all just memorization. Or even most complicate formula are just basically sequence of basic arithmetic at the end. Even if you don't account for memorization, the reason why Savage get easier over time because the missing skill can be compensated over time. This is why I mentioned the skill improvement over time part.

If someone is bad enough to never execute a mechanic successfully, and that person skill never improve.

- In savage: eventually either they get the gear, or the fight get neft, or both that even if they never execute that mechanically successful, it will eventually get to a point they don't need to do the mechanic but still can pass it.
- In Ultimate: you either execute the mechanic correctly, or you never get pass it. It's irrelevant how long it takes, if eventually you can pass that mech, that mean your skill had improved. That improvement under savage is optional, in Ultimate it is a much.

Same-thing can be said about rotation and such. In Ultimate you must attend the necessary mastery to meet the check. In savage, even if you never do, eventually either the system or other players will compensate for you.


I think you're talking from a top down perspective. To players who are "already" at Ultimate level, then yes, the difference may really just come down to time. But from a bottom up POV, then savage and Ultimate are on 2 completely different tier in far more way than just the time it took.

[Absimiliard]

You know what? Fair points. The two different perspectives are very difficult to reconcile with one another.

I would also say time is a factor. Savages can typically be completed with less total investment due to the fights tending to be shorter and having fewer mechanics. For many adult players, even finding time to do savages can be a bit challenging. This can and often does place ultimate squarely out of their reach, even should they be willing to attempt it.

[Raven2014]

Also I want to add, Ultimate demand something that maybe as important as skill set if not more from the players: focus and consistency. Especially the latter. In my experience, what often make and break an Ultimate group is not really the skill floor because most people who even want to attempt it would probably pass the skill floor check. But it's a completely different issue whether you can delivery consistency performance and maintain focus to reach new mechanic and not spending 80% of the raid night re-prog various mech you already past.

And if you go to any recruiter or manager and ask them "is consistency a skill", I bet most of them will tell you that's one of the skill. I personally know a few players that can consider a top players if you look at the performance ceiling in savage. At the sametime, half of them I sincerely doubt have the consistency to persist through an Ultimate.

[VelKallor]

then there's little need to be hung up on the prospect of it happening.

It should not happen at all. The game has been tested, as has been said over and over again WITHOUT the use of 3rd party addons to beat the instance, so no there IS no need for third party programs.

I also want to go on record saying there IS a need for Ultimate, that I support it 10000%, that the players that want and love this kind of content should have it and more power to them. What has been lost here, I think, is that this incident has soured things for the players that dont cheat, whose skill and prowess makes this a worthy challenge they can rise to defeat.

Those who cheat have more or less almost ruined it for those who dont..I hope that Yoshi was only thinking about it and that more Ultimates will come down the line.

A few bad apples should not wreck things for the rest.

[ICountFrom0]

It should not happen at all. The game has been tested, as has been said over and over again WITHOUT the use of 3rd party addons to beat the instance, so no there IS no need for third party programs.

I also want to go on record saying there IS a need for Ultimate, that I support it 10000%, that the players that want and love this kind of content should have it and more power to them. What has been lost here, I think, is that this incident has soured things for the players that dont cheat, whose skill and prowess makes this a worthy challenge they can rise to defeat.

Those who cheat have more or less almost ruined it for those who dont..I hope that Yoshi was only thinking about it and that more Ultimates will come down the line.

A few bad apples should not wreck things for the rest.

Current evidance is that this is not true.
Only group that claimed to clear it, cheated to do it.

I've not seen anybody else come forward.

100% of all clears required cheating.

We will see what the actual ratio turns out to be latter.


And the saying is "a few bad apples ruin the basket" for a reason. They DID spoil things. If the reputation is that this is a game you can cheat in, and that high end content requires cheating... burn it to the ground, not one stick left standing against another, for nothing of importance will be lost.

[VelKallor]

BTW just to go back to a point made earlier...it doesnt matter what he does from now on, he can make as much money as he likes, but for the rest of his life, the name Lance Armstrong and the words "drug cheat" will always be synonymous.

I very much doubt thats something anyone would be proud of.

[elioaiko]

I get that he's fed up with cheaters and ppl crying about 3rd party tools ruining the game but even he knows the reality.

There's always going to be cheaters. And they should be punished and stopped but it should never affect others that don't cheat their way through content.