Did SE threaten to not make ultimates anymore?

[Jojoya]

What is the point of asking for the hardest content when you intend to cheat in order to win? Whats the point? To prove your cheating is better than the other guy? If you CANT WIN HONESTLY in content YOU demanded, then why do it at all?

For a lot of people, it's about the reward and not the accomplishment. It can be about the notoriety and momentary fame, good or bad.

Don't worry about why others do it. Do things for your own reason.

Then maybe Yoshi has a point about whether or not they make future Ultimate encounters, if this is going to be the outcome. Remember what I posted earlier? My point was simple, I had to do it again and again and again..but I beat that scenario ON MY OWN MERITS.

I failed before because I hadnt gotten the mechanics down, but that made the final win that much more satisfying.

Ultimates are the hardest content we have, putting the skill of those who attempt it to the absolute edge...the warrior must be equal to that fight , else better not step foot on the battlefield at all.

They should continue to make Ultimates. Make them for the players who are going to tackle them in an honest fashion with no interest in cheating. Allow them to get their experience regardless of what others might choose to do.

What they should never do is turn world first into an official competition. There is no need to turn it into an official competition. The existence of the Ultimate is enough to get players to come to the game to see if they can beat it as opposed to trying to prove they're better than other players by beating it first. Turn it into a competition and many will feel like if they're not doing it when that competitive window is open then there's no point in doing it at all.

[Shurrikhan]

Then almost all raid teams deserve to lose. Is it really an unfair advantage when pretty much everyone is doing it?

"If all your friends jumped of a cliff, would you jump too?"

...Really?

A far more apt comparison is, "If nearly every later PuG raider has studied video guides before attempting the content (and therefore almost anyone could reasonably expect that you, one among that many, have done likewise), are you obliged to do the same?"

Going in blind or without any addons noting phase-change timers, etc., are the more appropriate analog for the "cliff" one might jump off.

The question simply lies in what designs would, for the average person, warrant a less intuitive or direct experience (via addons) over whatever costs come from not doing so. Weekly lockouts having no roll-over leniency, unintuitive mechanics, difficulty spikes, and the like all add motive to making things easier for oneself and thereby one's party. And as stigma against third-party tools conflates the likes of a parser or QoL mod with those that supply auto-markers and auto-callouts, there's all the less cost to passing that threshold (since just fixing graphical flickering or playing the game in Spanish already put you over that threshold).

The higher the motive and lower the relative cost to using such mods, the more prevalent they become, which in turn increases the motive and lowers the apparent cost all the more.

[VelKallor]

Going in blind or without any addons noting phase-change timers, etc., are the more appropriate analog for the "cliff" one might jump off.

On this, we agree.

My POV is simple. You can cheat to win, sure. Its a victory, hollow as it may be. Its what you do when you lose that is the true test of character.

[Jaquan]

Then almost all raid teams deserve to lose. Is it really an unfair advantage when pretty much everyone is doing it?

Don't think I've ever heard more disheartening thing when it comes to this argument around "cheating". For me it always has one effect. Discourages me from ever touching said aspect of the game. If everyone is expected to bend the rules to make things easier for them then why bother trying it in the first place? Had same effect for me in Pokemon where online community is so acceptive to simply creating your team via outside tool and "hacking" it into one's game that it became the standard. Arguments are even the same pointing out it still requires player input to pilot the team and since everyone does it it's not "unfair advantage" at all. By the end of it those that want to play fair using only tools provided by the game are ostracized and seen as weirdos.

Is it much different with how we see the 3rd party tools used specifically for raiding (automated callouts calling out mechanics in advance and telling the player where to move to resolve them)? There's no point in learning by doing if you can have cactbot guide you in real time. It goes further than just watching and memorizing the guide as you don't have to commit the knowledge to memory. Just execute commands you're given. And because it's a team game we enforce that by essentially guilt tripping those that disagree saying that they owe their team a smooth run. That it's selfish abd disrespectful to not use cactbot or other tool working similarly.

It also has another aspect. It paints endgame content in a distorted light. Making the seem inbalanced, poorly designed. Claiming that the usage of add-ons is necessity to tackle the encounter because it's unbeatable otherwise.

[Seymour_Rainecourt]

They could always just not care about the world first races... Just drop in the content like any other patch, put the servers up whenever they're ready instead of artificially lengthening the maintenance for the sake of a small minority of players.

And with less of a race, there's less incentive to cheat.

The "race" is entirely created by the players and community, NOT XIV/SE.

[Seymour_Rainecourt]

Very few third-party tools even make fights easier to begin with, and the handful that do still can't play the game for you. There's no reason for anyone to get bent out of shape over it. Point blank; most raiders in the game do utilize third-party tools, whether they want to admit it or not. That is the norm - yes, even for JP raid teams. Nothing about this is new or fascinating. It's only an issue because someone was dumb enough to out themselves, thereby painting a nice big target on their whole team's back.

Tl;dr: Yoshi-P either overreacted or over-acted, depending on one's perspective. There is zero chance he isn't already aware of the amount of third-party tool usage going on. There is also little to no chance of them discontinuing Ultimates over this, although the resources that go into said Ultimates could be put to better use elsewhere anyway.

ALL addons are against ToS. ALL.

[Payadopa]

On this, we agree.

My POV is simple. You can cheat to win, sure. Its a victory, hollow as it may be. Its what you do when you lose that is the true test of character.

I really like this one. Very true. I get that when I play a difficult game or when I can't find something and then I look at my phone only to remind myself that it would just cheapen the win so I put it down again. lol

I guess that's the reason why I still haven't finished Elden Ring after 400 hours. haha Mainly because I enjoy the lore. I'm like 50 pages worth of notes deep. Needless to say I do all PF stuff blind. A good struggle is hard to beat.

[Thoosa]

It kinda feels like pointless development time and creativity if people are just going to cheat through them, and that counts for savage too. If you’re actually at a disadvantage by not cheating, what’s the point in doing the content?

I’d prefer them to try and find ways to technically stop it, but not sure they can or will?

[Teno]

It kinda feels like pointless development time and creativity if people are just going to cheat through them, and that counts for savage too. If you’re actually at a disadvantage by not cheating, what’s the point in doing the content?

I’d prefer them to try and find ways to technically stop it, but not sure they can or will?

Well the game is made with no cheating in mind, so the problem is rather that people get an advantage with add ons. For the majority it doesn't matter, but for such a popular event (even more so by the standard twitch viewers count the game gets) that the WF race is, with how competitive it is, it makes a lot of noise and bad rep for SE (going by their rules).

[Thoosa]

Just to give an example. If I’m trying to prog savage in PF and mess up a mechanic, but the rest of the group clear it because they are using mods to show them safe spaces etc, and they kick me because of it, that’s unfair and I’m at a disadvantage for playing the game as intended.

Ok, so I can say I learned the fight and cleared it without cheating, but if most or all in my party are using cheat mods, it sucks.