PLD 6.3 opinions

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

If I was to remove Intervention I'd make Shelltron on 2/3 seconds so it retains it's "double tank buster" use, I personally don't see how that would change PLD in anyway and it would reduce button bloat easily.

its not homogenisation Intervention is just slightly worse holy shelltron for a friend right now lol (other then being able to use it on double tank busters)

I mean buffed Intervention is around the same as Holy Sheltron, and on double busters, you'll always have a buffed Intervention, rest of the time, it's literally whatever.

[Gserpent]

I'm sorry but your Intervention gripe is actually annoying. It's by far one of the best OT skills in the game, and one of it's strongest interactions is during content where double busters happen, allowing PLD to use Sheltron on themselves and throw an intervention on their co-tank, allowing their co-tank to share their short mit with the Paladin instead. Your suggestion neuters the kit, and seriously button bloat is not an excuse to get rid of it. Also the whole "we can't stand homogenisation" but then people asking for so many things to be homogenised it's just so....HUH?

That wasn't a strength, that was a liability because you had to do that gimmicky Sheltron+Intervention switcheroo because PLD couldn't block the bleed portion of the tankbuster. Your PLD either died or forced GCD healing if you didn't do that. I'm actually wondering if PLD will end up being overtuned, defensively, now that they will no longer require the buddy skill to survive tankbusters.

Homogeneity among DPS cycles is what people hate, especially when that comes at the cost of class fantasy. People *don't* hate homogeneity among defensive kits, because that's the fastest way to reach legitimate "if you don't take this class you're griefing your team" scenarios.

[Corbeau]

The PLD rework feels fantastic. Paladin had 3-4 characteristics that set it apart from other tanks, in my mind at least, and they accentuated the enjoyable differences without deleting it's individuality. To me, PLD was defined by these attributes:


- Cover; no other tank can save an ally like this. Hell, no other *class* can save an ally like this.

- Ranged magic attacks; no other tank periodically becomes a ranged class.

- Rigidity; there was basically no leeway to move any GCD in PLD's rotation.

- Repetition; a lot of pushing the exact same button over and over again (atonement, holy spirit post-requescat, and then confiteor combo in EW).


I would argue that the first two were unambiguously good differences, while the latter could (and imo did) wear out their welcome. So what did the rework do?


- Cover: they didn't change cover. Good. I wish it was more reliable but a lot of that is on the game engine, not PLD.

- Ranged magic attacks: they added more freedom in placing ranged GCDs during both filler and (to a lesser extent) burst phases. Good: this means more moment to moment small choices to deal with mechanics and momentary downtime.

- Rigidity: the above change obviously means a reduction in PLD's unique level of rotational rigidity. Good IMO; it's not like new-PLD is freestyling, there are just small windows to spend Divine Might now instead of total lockstep GCD planning.

- Repetition: they outright deleted one of the three major key-mashing sequences (req into holy spirit) and the fact that you can shift a divine might cast around anywhere within your atonements actually breaks up the filler on occasion as well. Good IMO; it's not like PLD lost this attribute entirely, they just de-emphasized it back to around ShB levels.


As someone who mained PLD for ShB's savage raids and enjoyed it, this rework feels like a more fun and interesting version of that. Which is shocking to me, since I feel they've stumbled repeatedly on other class changes lately. Even the SMN rework, which I also enjoyed, felt like it was missing a layer of complexity. PLD doesn't give me that vibe at all; if anything it feels more interesting to play than the old version.

The only thing that feels decidedly off is that Expacion and Circle of Scorn are damage oGCDs with identical cooldowns and no other kit interaction to distinguish them. There is no circumstance in which you press one and not the other; they could be combined into one button and absolutely nothing would be lost while reducing button bloat. Why buttons like this remain while the class design team chops meaningful buttons from other classes (hi SAM) mystifies me.

[Rithy255]

I mean buffed Intervention is around the same as Holy Sheltron, and on double busters, you'll always have a buffed Intervention, rest of the time, it's literally whatever.

I mean you're not wrong in most cases you would be buffing your intervention but it shouldn't really need to require that gimmick to be on par with your own personal CD, while War and Gunbreaker actually get benefits from using it on a friend, I just don't feel like intervention is a needed in PLD's kit if we made Shellton targetable, save some much needed space without removing anything, now I wouldn't mind some things being removed but I feel like eitherway just getting intervention off the hotbar for exchange of Shelltron/holy shelltron having a small recast timer (2-3 seconds) and being able to still have it's nice double tank buster utility.

I mean it's something i don't really care all too much about but I had one too many buttons with bulwark so i had to move a lot around.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

That wasn't a strength, that was a liability because you had to do that gimmicky Sheltron+Intervention switcheroo because PLD couldn't block the bleed portion of the tankbuster. Your PLD either died or forced GCD healing if you didn't do that. I'm actually wondering if PLD will end up being overtuned, defensively, now that they will no longer require the buddy skill to survive tankbusters.

Homogeneity among DPS cycles is what people hate, especially when that comes at the cost of class fantasy. People *don't* hate homogeneity among defensive kits, because that's the fastest way to reach legitimate "if you don't take this class you're griefing your team" scenarios.

Actually, that was a thing done in ShB, by tanks that actually had a clue what they were doing, long before bleeds where you would swap short mits with each other.

You say that, but I've seen plenty of people bitch about Rampart as a role action instead of every job having their own version, or people complained that 3 out of the 4, 30% mits were the exact same, and had no flavour apart from Warrior's Vengeance and its small potency spikes from physical attacks, so think you wrong on that account too. There was also people memeing on calling the reworked Veil, Shake it Off 2.0, even though Shake was a copy pasta of veil but slightly different, but people like to mis-remember things.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I mean you're not wrong in most cases you would be buffing your intervention but it shouldn't really need to require that gimmick to be on par with your own personal CD, while War and Gunbreaker actually get benefits from using it on a friend, I just don't feel like intervention is a needed in PLD's kit if we made Shellton targetable, save some much needed space without removing anything, now I wouldn't mind some things being removed but I feel like eitherway just getting intervention off the hotbar for exchange of Shelltron/holy shelltron having a small recast timer (2-3 seconds) and being able to still have it's nice double tank buster utility.

I mean it's something i don't really care all too much about but I had one too many buttons with bulwark so i had to move a lot around.

There is also the thing where you wouldn't actually save any hotbar space since most still have at least a targetting macro on their hotbar for faster reactions than having to click the person like so:

/ac "Intervention" <2>
/micon "Intervention"

So I don't really see what your change would actually accomplish.

[Rithy255]

There is also the thing where you wouldn't actually save any hotbar space since most still have at least a targetting macro on their hotbar for faster reactions than having to click the person like so:

/ac "Intervention" <2>
/micon "Intervention"

So I don't really see what your change would actually accomplish.

And it's useful to still have intervention not dedicated to a single target, I have a macro and the action both seperately so if I need to throw a intervention on the other tank I can just by pressing my keyboard without targeting, but I also have intervention on my hotbar so i can I use it on other party members if they need 1. Some mitigation 2. regen on a target to save a healer cd.

I'm pretty sure you should still keep a non macro version of intervention on your hotbar.

EDIT: also don't know what you're trying to accomplish by defending a ability that just takes up space, when I've explained how we could remove it and PLD would still be the same.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

And it's useful to still have intervention not dedicated to a single target, I have a macro and the action both seperately so if I need to throw a intervention on the other tank I can just by pressing my keyboard without targeting, but I also have intervention on my hotbar so i can I use it on other party members if they need 1. Some mitigation 2. regen on a target to save a healer cd.

I'm pretty sure you should still keep a non macro version of intervention on your hotbar.

I have 6 macros at the job icon side of my party list from positions 3-8 so I can just click the macro if needed, and 2 in party list on my main bar since that will usually be my primary usage of Intervention.

Edit: personally I like Intervention as it is, and I do not see a reason for it to be removed, simple as that.

[Rithy255]

I have 6 macros at the job icon side of my party list from positions 3-8 so I can just click the macro if needed, and 2 in party list on my main bar since that will usually be my primary usage of Intervention.

Edit: personally I like Intervention as it is, and I do not see a reason for it to be removed, simple as that.

Well it stands to reason not everyone has a Intervention macro on the side of their party list, I don't know why you like intervention as it is it's just holy shelltron for a friend my changes make it so holy shelltron is useable just like intervention on the target with no down sides. Most players still have intervention on their hotbars, it's like arguing that shield bash isn't bloat because I can take it off my hotbar.

I guess we're just going to talk in circles because you like it for the sake of it I guess? despite how I explained how it could easily just be removed without PLD changing in the slightest.

[Gserpent]

Actually, that was a thing done in ShB, by tanks that actually had a clue what they were doing, long before bleeds where you would swap short mits with each other.

You say that, but I've seen plenty of people bitch about Rampart as a role action instead of every job having their own version, or people complained that 3 out of the 4, 30% mits were the exact same, and had no flavour apart from Warrior's Vengeance and its small potency spikes from physical attacks, so think you wrong on that account too. There was also people memeing on calling the reworked Veil, Shake it Off 2.0, even though Shake was a copy pasta of veil but slightly different, but people like to mis-remember things.

That was most certainly not a thing done by tanks in ShB because in ShB you just either invuln'd or just kitchen sink'd the tankbusters. You're talking out your ass.