Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[FireMage]

I was wondering when you would chime in. Seeing as you have no way of knowing in any case, the comment is moot.

You mean your comments are moot actually, as you have yet to show you have value in discussing this matter

[Zebraoracle]

On this i willingly concede. You may dismiss what I have seen as "anecdotal"..yet I can replicate these occurrences with other players who will happily recount THEIRS as well. I submit that the fact it didnt happen to you is not evidence it didnt happen.

I do not dismiss what you said at all, I fully believe it happened. My issue is that unfortunately, anecdotal evidence doesn't mean something will happen or happens on a daily basis, I take it more of a "this is what we should watch out for and try to prevent from happening if parsing tools were added". Cautionary tales that are worth listening to.

snipped the quote you quoted for character limit.[/B].

While I don't necessarily disagree with this, I do want to point out that 14's community is generally pretty intolerant of this sort of stuff. I'm willing to bet anyone who tries pulling this crap in normal duty stuff around the more casual or anti-raid crowd is going to get blasted out of the game. 14's community, while I do think has its own brand of toxicity, is not WoW's. If anything, the passive aggressive underbelly of our community would grow more passive aggressive (my theory, anyways).

In this very thread, we have the term "bads" being thrown around, which illustrates my point on dps numbers giving rise to a "Im superior to them so its fine for me to scream abuse at them" mentality.

I hope you'll at least agree with me that the likes of Firemage are definitely outliers and not the view of every pro-parsing person in the thread, nor that everyone will suddenly become like that if they were added to the game. The only time I personally would refer to someone as a bad is if they're literally leeching off the rest of the group and expecting a free ride. I do not think people that are new and learning and trying are bads. They MIGHT be bad at the game for the moment, but they're not A BAD, if that makes sense lol.

I also submit that, as with any tool, regardless of what it is, the old adage "If it can be abused or misused, it will be" holds true. I agree you do not share my conclusions, but at the same time it would be..unwise..to dismiss them out of hand.

Vels Rules: snip for character limit

My issue with this is for starters I am not dismissing your conclusions, and I apologize if that's how I'm coming across, but a lot of this thread has basically felt like various things I and others have said have been twisted out of context and that people are putting their hands over their ears screaming "blah blah blah", and it goes from exasperating to frustrating. Again, apologies if I'm coming across as antagonistic or dismissive, as that is not my intent and does not foster conversation or debate. And second, I find it really hard to prevent something because of the potential for misusing, when there is a lot of objectively good potential for actually using it.

[Zebraoracle]

For the record, I freely invite anyone to look at my own logs. They're garbage LOL, as I tend to focus on run safety than DPS, and even then when it's safe I make mistakes all the time. I'm a regular graylet sometimes greenlet and I've *always* been terrible at DPSing, both in 14 and WoW. Dunno how I was in ESO because I wasn't aware of any damage meters there, nor did I ever really see anyone talking about DPS all that much.

My cohealer described herself as "a white mage who probably makes the sage work too hard" the other day lmao

[Atelier-Bagur]

What do you think would happen if I pop off ingame on somebody for failing a mechanic right now? I would catch a swift journey to GM gaol. Why do you pretend popping off on someone's dps numbers in the case an official parser gets introduced would lead to a different outcome?

I think it just means that kind of behavior would just occur more frequently, even with GMs getting involved. We already have a weird distinction between actual advice and being toxic within this community so that fine line is just going to be such a mess. Realistically us smelly gamers are going to ruin it for the rest of the people that actually do use it for what its intended for, and I think its because of that extra headache the dev team doesnt want to deal with it. Its already been proven multiple times in other games, its not as if this is an entirely alien concept that misuse of parsing is something that will happen more frequently.

And again, yes we have ToS and ideally we would expect that it will be enforced but would you really think they'll want to risk more drama to happen for the sake of the few who care about their raiding? If I was in charge of making the rules, I would definitely want to make precautions necessary to avoid any unnecessary issues rather than potentially causing more.

I already heard somebody bring up personal damage meters which I think is a fine idea, if the intention IS for personal use.

[Bobby66]

I have said sure it does happen, but if we are being fair it does not happen majority of the time unless the player that is happening too is grossly doing something to warrant it being brought up at a higher then avg frequency. Should we really bar the use of the a tool because some players may get picked on at the higher rate then the avg? Or should we just allow the ToS to protect those that need the extra layer of protection?

[VelKallor]

You mean your comments are moot actually, as you have yet to show you have value in discussing this matter

Id discuss this with you, but Im busy rearranging my socks, which, trust me, is FAR more interesting....

[Zebraoracle]

I think it just means that kind of behavior would just occur more frequently, even with GMs getting involved. We already have a weird distinction between actual advice and being toxic within this community so that fine line is just going to be such a mess. Realistically us smelly gamers are going to ruin it for the rest of the people that actually do use it for what its intended for, and I think its because of that extra headache the dev team doesnt want to deal with it. Its already been proven multiple times in other games, its not as if this is an entirely alien concept that misuse of parsing is something that will happen more frequently.

And again, yes we have ToS and ideally we would expect that it will be enforced but would you really think they'll want to risk more drama to happen for the sake of the few who care about their raiding? If I was in charge of making the rules, I would definitely want to make I take precautions necessary to avoid any unnecessary issues rather than potentially causing more.

I already heard somebody bring up personal damage meters which I think is a fine idea, if the intention IS for personal use.

I mean I'd freely agree with this if 14's community wasn't so weird to begin with. 14's community is a weird MMO outlier where the players themselves are pretty intolerant of rule breaking, ranging from legitimate reports of toxicity to idiots who cry when someone offers help (in a genuinely non-hostile manner), and the GMs are really active with rule enforcement (except in those frustrating times where stalkers manage to keep getting away with their crap... >_> ). I genuinely don't think much would change at all, and things definitely wouldn't change if parsing tools were ONLY added to extremes, savage, and ultimates.

At the very least, surely most of us can agree that only content with enrage timers is a more fair middle ground for adding parsing tools? It doesn't affect the more casual or anti-raid crowd who doesn't do that content anyways, and people who routinely do that content are quite likely to already be running or have access to ACT anyways.

Id discuss this with you, but Im busy rearranging my socks, which, trust me, is FAR more interesting....

Bro I'm so glad I mostly only have one type of sock that I wear, so at least I don't have to sort them ._. I freaking hate dealing with laundry.

[FireMage]

Id discuss this with you, but Im busy rearranging my socks, which, trust me, is FAR more interesting....

Your attempt to troll is poor. Anyway there is no discussion to be had, as you have nothing of value to contribute

[VelKallor]

Zebraoracle: Noted with thanks. I merely wished to post counter arguments, and in all truth am enjoying your feedback.

Cautionary tales that are worth listening to.

They are indeed.

My thanks for hearing me out. One thing: yes yes I know Im going back to it, but though the video itself is long, you dont need to watch it as really the screen graphics are placeholders, this is more one to listen to. I accept the time involved, but in all truth, I really do recommend it.

Your call, of course

Bro I'm so glad I mostly only have one type of sock that I wear, so at least I don't have to sort them ._. I freaking hate dealing with laundry.

Life of a bachelor in all its glory

[VelKallor]

Your attempt to troll is poor. Anyway there is no discussion to be had, as you have nothing of value to contribute

Yet here you are replying to me. Ive spoken to answering machines that make more sense than you ever do.