How much difference in damage should the tanks have?

[Oextra]

Considering how similar all of the tanks play and the difficultly level of playing them is similar, their DPS should be similar. My hotbars for 2 tanks are nearly the identical ( WAR and PLD ). GNB is almost the same as WAR with a few differences. Same with PLD really. DRK is the only one that is setup fairly differently, but that might just be because I play it the least so it feels different to me. Maybe it is more similar to the other tanks than I realize.

I'm sorry but no lol. Yeah they all have a 123 they constantly do (every melee wielding job does this), but WAR and GNB don't play the same at all. The only two tanks that really play similarly are WAR and DRK.

[Rithy255]

Yes I think 4% is a "big difference" I never said they couldn't fix it, I was never against "Job balance" I'm against the idea that only dps matters when it comes to balancing jobs such as tanks, Dark Knight is generally a messy Job in need of a rework personally, it's so powerful in raid situations yet such a underwhelming design that doesn't even fit for the jobs identity, right now it's in great need of a rework and it needs a different GCD rotation from warrior. 11% is too much even if a tank was considerably stronger in defence, I will agree with that

Theirs also "nothing fun" about making jobs more and more similar to the point theirs actually no Interesting "meta" in the game, FF14 generally hasn't had "balance issues" just less viable jobs, P8S isn't a great example (I know a lot of people use it as one that ff14 is imbalanced, must fix) because it wasn't even intended to have a dps check that bad, In general despite classes being weaker they've been pretty well viable in a lot of content, "different rotations" only mean so much with how Jobs like casters work, you cannot balance casters based on changing rotation alone, a lot of them have different movement, Utility and mobility and only focusing on "DPS balance" ignores that.

This is the same with tanks, to a degree right now arguably Dark Knight and Gunbreaker are generally way too strong compared to PLD in defensive kit and DPS, I don't think the solution is purely to boost PLD's dps blindly, they need a bit more to have a comfortable spot in the meta, but I do not really want PLD to become the new "DPS TANK" to beat DRK/GNB it's never been PLD's Job identity to have high damage, it's supposed to be the "support/defensive" tank, it should be slightly behind in terms of DPS and offer actual benefits outside of that, theirs always been a consistency with PLD bringing more defensive raidwides, while they're not "required" they do definitely help in a learning and progression situation. I'm actually hopeful they will fix PLD's issues now they're adding a new/old defensive to the class, to hopefully make it stronger in it's actual identity as the "shield tank"

Burst Jobs limit job design as a whole, it makes every job feel very similar when they're all weaving big hitters into 120 windows and going back to build up phase, it allows for some uniqueness, sure you can have room for different jobs, but a lot of Jobs also feel pretty samey due to the changes, you can't really have Jobs that have multiple bursts anymore

Balance is important but FF14 never really has had major struggles in balance, in general all jobs have remained viable, some people will go with the meta, as long as a job is 1% ahead people will pick it for the meta, I don't think that will ever change, we should embrace uniqueness and Job identity but also consider what's balanced for a healthy game, theirs no point in new jobs if they're all reskins that play slightly differently but have the same function.

[Oextra]

Theirs also "nothing fun" about making jobs more and more similar to the point theirs actually no Interesting "meta" in the game,

Bro I think you're too invested in an argument that's not being fought, not by the other guy anyways. They very clearly said you can make jobs play very different, yet have them perform very similarly (this is in reference to damage since that's what really matters in these fights). So they aren't advocating for jobs to play the same. They advocating for them to do similar damage numbers, which they proved can and is being done to an extent, just not with tanks, which is a problem.

[Rithy255]

Bro I think you're too invested in an argument that's not being fought, not by the other guy anyways. They very clearly said you can make jobs play very different, yet have them perform very similarly (this is in reference to damage since that's what really matters in these fights). So they aren't advocating for jobs to play the same. They advocating for them to do similar damage numbers, which they proved can and is being done to an extent, just not with tanks, which is a problem.

Ok so how do you suppose you make summoner and black mage with their current designs do the same damage and it be fair to BLM?

I'm pretty sure they argued earlier that tanks/healers should have no meaningful difference and the only differences between jobs should be rotation based.

[Melethron123]

okay you seem hell bent on the idea that balanced dps = jobs have to play the same despite all the examples i gave of very different jobs having very similar dmg, so i'm just going to leave a final example and be done with it:

DRK and WAR are two tanks that play very similarly, yet their damage is 11% apart from each other
PLD and WAR are two tanks that play very differently, yet their damage is 1% apart from each other

and as it was explained by others, dps is pretty much most important thing in balancing this game due to how encounters are designed.

[Melethron123]

Ok so how do you suppose you make summoner and black mage with their current designs do the same damage and it be fair to BLM?

I'm pretty sure they argued earlier that tanks/healers should have no meaningful difference and the only differences between jobs should be rotation based.

if anything it'd be more accurate to compare BLM to SAM and MCH, since they're the jobs that don't have raid buffs and are therefore responsible for converting those buffs into potency for the group. (and from what i've seen, MCH players aren't too happy about their current standing)

[Rithy255]

okay you seem hell bent on the idea that balanced dps = jobs have to play the same despite all the examples i gave of very different jobs having very similar dmg, so i'm just going to leave a final example and be done with it:

DRK and WAR are two tanks that play very similarly, yet their damage is 11% apart from each other
PLD and WAR are two tanks that play very differently, yet their damage is 1% apart from each other

and as it was explained by others, dps is pretty much most important thing in balancing this game due to how encounters are designed.

I didn't ever say that "balanced jobs = jobs have to play the same" I'm saying it's not "easy" to do or we wouldn't have DPS imbalance in the first place, I'm also saying only balancing by DPS numbers isn't even good in the first place, If people picked jobs only for total raid damage then it really makes no sense why a Mobile/utility caster like summoner would get way more people using it over Black mage, theirs actually reasons outside damage that make a good Job.

Also with DRK VS WAR, war is generally 1. Easier to pick up 2. Has more sustain and the best invul in the game, but of course it matters less this tier and DRKS general defensive kit is more suited for this current tier, so I'd hope the gap between the two would be closed as both have very different defensive/utility already, I'm fine with them moving warrior a bit more inline with other tanks but it shouldn't be ahead of the others.

While yes DPS is important it isn't always the be all and end all, most people play support jobs for firstly a different support kit from one another.

if anything it'd be more accurate to compare BLM to SAM and MCH, since they're the jobs that don't have raid buffs and are therefore responsible for converting those buffs into potency for the group. (and from what i've seen, MCH players aren't too happy about their current standing)

No machinist should never compare to casters or melee, if MCH did the same damage as BLM them their would be no reason to play BLM outside a percent buff, compare casters to casters, it's fairly well known BLM does more then SMN/RDM even considering both raid buffs SMN/RDM give.

[Melethron123]

there's nothing stopping you from bringing 2 ranged or 2 casters to a raid. the reason why people bring 2 melee is, as often, more damage.

also: why wouldn't people bring BLM if MCH dealt the same damage throughout the fight?

[Rithy255]

there's nothing stopping you from bringing 2 ranged or 2 casters to a raid. the reason why people bring 2 melee is, as often, more damage.

PS: with you saying MCH would take BLM raid spot in the group if they dealt the same dmg you seem to understand that BLM is competing for a spot with MCH and SAM rather than SMN and RDM...

If MCH and phys ranged in general did similar numbers to melee jobs then it would pretty much be 2 phys ranged, 1 melee and 1 caster... You don't see 1 Melee, BLM & RDM/SMN that often but you will see 2melee and SMN/RDM often despite BLM having very similar output to melee Because blm is a much more difficult job to work around and it's less mobile, almost like mobility is a actual reason to take a job.

Again if damage mattered so much over utility, ease of use and mobility, people wouldn't bring summoner way more often then a BLM, theirs cases where damage isn't the be all end all, as long as you can beat enrage comfortably with your current comp it's really not that important.

[Melethron123]

Again if damage mattered so much over utility, ease of use and mobility, people wouldn't bring summoner way more often then a BLM, theirs cases where damage isn't the be all end all, as long as you can beat enrage comfortably with your current comp it's really not that important.

i'm a bit sleep-deprived this week (baby) so my memory is a little fuzzy, but did i say in any of my posts that damage is the only thing that matters when it comes to bringing a job to a raid? from what i remember, i said "utility doesn't matter much for performance, since encounters have to be designed around the group comp with the lowest utility, and therefore those 'unique' abilities go to waste, like cover."

to clarify my thoughts on the subject: having more damage will make an encounter easier than having more special utilities. that's because of the reasons already cited. that doesn't mean people will always bring the jobs that have the highest damage, for the simple fact that people would rather play the jobs they find more fun as long as it doesn't put too much of a strain on their group.
so the reason why people bring SMN over BLM can simply be "because my static member finds it more fun and we can still clear just fine with our comp"

on the other hand, if MCH dealt the same dmg as BLM, the reason to play BLM could simply be "because i find it more fun". There are plenty of people on the forums, on reddit, and on youtube who are constantly complaining about jobs being simple and wanting more complexity, so they'd be happy to play a more difficult job just for the sake of having more difficulty

i'd never claim "people won't play jobs that do less damage" because i can see very clearly that there are people clearing savage and DSR on MCH and PLD. fewer than DNC and DRK, but they're there nonetheless.

the real issue when it comes to dps balancing is this: if the weaker raid comps and the stronger raid comps have a significant difference in performance between them, the encounters will either be too difficult for the weaker comps or too easy for the stronger comps.
what happened this tier was a very good showcase of that. the devs couldn't be bothered to test the raid on weaker jobs, which means they tuned it too highly at release and people who played said weaker jobs ended up having a much more difficult boss than intended.

xenos posted a video talking about how much his group struggled to meet the DPS check while he was playing warrior, and as soon as he switched to GNB they were able to pass even on a pull where he got 2 damage downs. (if you're curious, the name of the video is "ff14 balance is the worst it has been in years")