What even is the purpose of all those non melee/blm jobs?

[Rithy255]

The 6.28 adjustments were a good start but really lacking... I feel like right now the changes are purposely too safe it takes a while.

Wasn't phys ranged meant to be the "Utility jobs" at least what it says in the job guide "and also provide support for companions." Mch doesn't bring anything unique nor has good enough Damage to outclass DNC or BRD, Now I think DNC actually has amazing utility outside of damage buffs, Bards utility is weird so I'd like adjustments there.

I think how I'd generally "fix phys ranged" is: 1. Make them give some more supportive (non "dps+ all party raid wide buff) abilites 2. Make sure their Damage output is behind but not by a lot, MCH should ideally be the 3rd personal (Not including damage buffs) highest DPS, but it trades in mainly Mobility and uptime with some good utility. All ranged jobs should still be behind melee/Blm jobs but also not too far off.

SMN/RDM are harder to discuss then phys ranged, Generally even if raise was removed from both jobs you wouldn't want smn to perform at blm's level with its mobility options, but RDM could arguably be up there with melee's if it had no raise, but I also think BLM should be even higher then it is currently, I think having a BLM is less appealing then having a melee (outside giving 1% to team). Something generally needs to be done about caster balance.

I Don't think the Situation is a simple "damage fix ez" but I do think for now making the jobs more closer at this point is required. I dislike that the only reason you bring a physranged is for the 1% buff, but I've said this the 1% group buff should stay as it's a nice failsafe when the balance is bad.

[Valence]

The irony is that's when Bard was king.

I'm going to be pedantic, but technically it was the Dragoon that was busted. Without what the DRG brought, BRD was still lagging behind. Less so than MCH for the reasons you stated (crit procs out of control and bad itemization), but still.

[Mikey_R]

Now then the obvious answer has always been, give something else to rPhys to chew on. You removed all of their identity (manasong, raid mitigation) but the heavy raid buffs (except on mch because who cares about mch those days anyway amaright?), then give them something back that is mandatory to take into parties (like old manasong) where it will not be really mandatory at casual level but then the damage gap will do the balancing job there,

I suspect the reasoning being getting rid of MP refresh was because of resource balancing, which is a shift that happened in ShB. All jobs manage their own resources.

To lay it out, how would you balance the MP usage of casters? On one hand, you can balance usage around the tools of the job, the job manages it's own resource and it is that players fault if they mess up, this is the current system. On the other hand, you can make it so that they cannot maintain MP on their own and need an outside source, aka MP song. If you then balance the MP usage around that, you then make the MP song required so if you are every in content and do not have a physical ranged to support you, you could run out of steam due to no fault of your own, or there is even the possibility that you do end up with one, but they don't use that resource. Your rotation is now directly tied to another player and as a result, so is your performance. Not necessarily an issue in a static environment, but out in the wild it is a different story.

[Valence]

I didn't especially call for manasong to come back, although I definitely miss some of the old party resource support and synergy and deplore the focus on full individual teamplay besides damage raid buffs.

But to entertain the idea, what you describe is exactly what has been removed from HW/SB gameplay. You needed a rphys in party for manasong/tp song, but this was mostly a requirement for raids and long trials else you'd see people run out, or just stop attacking to preserve MP, especially those that didn't use Lucid in casual content. The resource paradigm was very different in that casters had a LOT more MP (healers 15k+) and spells used to cost less (except the resource hungry ones like AoE GCDs and AoE damage). So you could actually go on a good amount of time before running dry, but since the MP regen on the other hand was pretty low, you needed the manasong eventually. Also, the problem of relying too much on rphys jobs is why they added role actions like manashift on dps casters to actually single target MP regen as well, which was a boon in random content, but honestly, rarely required (and could be used for shenanigans like making bard's raid buff Foe Requiem be ready earlier since it was based on MP consumption, because yes, we also used to have interesting raid buffs mechanically back then not just a button you press every 2min, although radiant finale is a step in a good direction).

Now then, yes, you kinda needed manasong for serious fights (long trials and raids). The same way that even today you still need (kinda) to keep aggro as a tank. You also needed to control your own aggro as a DPS with specific abilities (for this one I'm not gonna say it was especially enjoyable having to press a button on cd to do just that, so I'm definitely not arguing to go back to everything we had, I'm just saying what we lost, and that left a big party synergy/support void). They chose to remove this because it was things that when not done properly by players, that tended to screw up the party in annoying ways, like having to ask for manasong in party chat once running dry because the bard/machinist didn't use it, or see a dps suddenly grabbing aggro because the tanks couldn't manage it properly.

If the idea is that people don't want to play team games with other players and don't want to feel bad because somebody else messed up, I guess we're more than halfway there today. The last thing remaining is to remove raid damage buffs, and also raid mechanics that can kill somebody else than oneself? Not sure how far into the rabbit hole we can go tbh.

[Aurora428]

Mana refresh definitely justified having one prange in non-DRG parties

Prange lost the mana refresh AND do less damage than they did without the DRG

[Mikey_R]

If the idea is that people don't want to play team games with other players and don't want to feel bad because somebody else messed up, I guess we're more than halfway there today. The last thing remaining is to remove raid damage buffs, ... Not sure how far into the rabbit hole we can go tbh.

To start, I will say that there is a subtle, but important distinction to make. Your ability to do your rotation should not be impeded by someone else, however, this does not mean someone else cannot enhance your rotation. Running out of MP because you didn't get manasong is someone else impeding your rotation, however, giving someone else mana to increase a song length, while it isn't needed for that job to do their rotation, it helps to increase their value to the raid. Case in point with old Foe's Requiem, you didn't need extra MP to use it, however, if someone gave you MP to increase the song length, that is enhancing your rotation.

For enmity, I have made plenty of posts in the past about how the old aggro system was flawed and it ultimately comes down to, you get a lazy player, you, as the tank, gets punished for it, not the DPS.

As an example of a job that gets something back from others, look at Dancer, and no, I'm not talking about the extra 5% from Standard Finish, but instead the Espirit effect. Dancer can function just fine without getting any Espirit procs from their dance partner, their rotation doesn't just stop dead like old casters, however, there is a chance you can get an extra proc from someone else, and get an extra Saber Dance in. Something like Brotherhood and getting extra Chakra procs in. If you get more TFC, great, but your rotation doesn't suffer if you get less this time than last time. There is also Arcane Circle. Chances are, this will always be done at max stacks, however, if for whatever reason, it isn't, then you still use it, it doesn't stop your rotation dead, it is just enhancing it.

One common theme here is that all the effects are granted by the one that takes advantage of it. Brotherhood, Arcane Circle, etc. However, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to make a system where one job applies a buff, and it affecting another job. You cannot affect the resource gain of another job as, each job's resources are different (Just as an aside to compare tanks, PLD is purely defensive, WAR/DRK purely offensive and how would it even work with GNB without messing up its rotation), so that isn't aviable option.

The only other thing that could be done is extending buff durations, think Time Dilation on old AST, maybe make it raidwide instead of single target. One downside I can quickly think of is it will affect jobs, and even different buffs, differently. As a few examples, PLD would have to use FoF earlier so that it doesn't run into its magic phase and effectively wasting it, how about buffs that only affect a certain number of actions (Inner Release/Blood Weapon/etc.), or how about MCH, would they then get an extra Hypercharge in that window? I'm sure there are other complications people can think of.

On the flip side, you could could increase the duration of debuffs, but again, that comes with it's own complications, similar to extending buffs (Trick/Mug/Wildfire on for longer, so more damage potential, if it affects DoTs, how would that affect a job's rotation, especially DRG etc.)

These things are difficult to manage and I'm sure there are other ways people will come up with to enhance group synergy, but potential benefits and more importantly, detriments, must be considered.

[Aurora428]

Half of the jobs sucking by default isn't fun

They can do substantially more damage even with their current mobility

I personally think it is shocking that we have gone from a meta that was the fault of DRG/NIN's synergy more so than prange all the way to forcing physical ranged (and now casters) to be terrible in perpetuity.

I don't know why FFXIV players as a whole just found that acceptable, and why they are suddenly angry about it now when the range tax never justified itself even at the start of Shadowbringers BEFORE big hitboxes

Most people play more than one job, it's not fun for a melee to play a ranged job and instantly suck. It is not fun for a ranged player to play melee and instantly outclass themselves by default even in substantially worse gear.

The role bonus is not a riveting reason to play prange. I don't play MCH and think "wow I sure am glad I am bringing that 1% bonus!"

[Valence]

To start, I will say that there is a subtle, but important distinction to make. Your ability to do your rotation should not be impeded by someone else, however, this does not mean someone else cannot enhance your rotation. Running out of MP because you didn't get manasong is someone else impeding your rotation, however, giving someone else mana to increase a song length, while it isn't needed for that job to do their rotation, it helps to increase their value to the raid. Case in point with old Foe's Requiem, you didn't need extra MP to use it, however, if someone gave you MP to increase the song length, that is enhancing your rotation.

Sure thing, but your ability to execute your rotation is probably also gonna be severely hampered by someone else killing you with a mechanic, not healing you, or losing aggro to you. Should we also remove healing out of the game? Or what about that tank that didn't use enough mitigation and gets nuked by a buster and the healer wasn't good enough to adjust, making me the target of the next one? It really messed with my rotation because well you know. I died because of them fucking up.

Short story is, it's somehow not fine when some gameplay mechanics affect everybody in an important/mandatory way when it's on the DPS roles, but it's perfectly acceptable when it's on the support roles. Go figure.

[Valence]

The role bonus is not a riveting reason to play prange. I don't play MCH and think "wow I sure am glad I am bringing that 1% bonus!"

I for one, am very proud of bringing not only LEG GRAZE, but also FOOT GRAZE, and maybe even PELOTON. Who else is gonna bring those to the table if not me the rPhys job?

[Mikey_R]

Sure thing, but your ability to execute your rotation is probably also gonna be severely hampered by someone else killing you with a mechanic, not healing you, or losing aggro to you. Should we also remove healing out of the game? Or what about that tank that didn't use enough mitigation and gets nuked by a buster and the healer wasn't good enough to adjust, making me the target of the next one? It really messed with my rotation because well you know. I died because of them fucking up.

Short story is, it's somehow not fine when some gameplay mechanics affect everybody in an important/mandatory way when it's on the DPS roles, but it's perfectly acceptable when it's on the support roles. Go figure.

Again, it is the subtle but important difference between doing your rotation and doing the fight. Your rotation stays (mostly) the same for every fight, however, every boss is not the same in their mechanics.

In a different way, one is a failure for the job rotation, the other is a failure in the boss rotation. The boss needs to be threatening, so it can kill you, that is the punishment, however, should you also tack ontop the possibility of someone else destroying your rotation?

Failing to heal or tank is also not their actions directly affecting your rotation, it is the kill that affects it. In the scenario's I've been talking about, there is no death involved, it was just DPS doing their rotation then, because noone gave them a resource, their rotation stops dead. Out of MP and Lucid Dreaming is on cooldown? Or even out of TP and Invigorate is on cooldown. It just felt bad.

it isn't just the outcome that needs to be looked at, it is the process of getting to that outcome that is the major factor here.