Yoshi-P "definitive" answer on third party tools from today's 14 hour stream

[Rolder50]

So seems like addons get to continue living on in their grey area. Seems like he possibly wants to take more action but realizes they have become too important for too many people.

[Payadopa]

That's a whole lot of words to say "I understand how fflogs is the only longevity our raids have and removing it will lose us a bunch of money... But we also want them casual money too!".

He even said it's not a black and white issue, but of course both ends of the spectrum are going to misuse it. lol

Honestly, that don't ask, don't tell approach is a good compromise.

[caffe_macchiato]

Add-ins and plugins are becoming more widely-accepted across the community and even casual players love to use them. It’s become an integral part of the game experience on PC. Not everyone uses them, but a good chunk do. It’s a bit like WoW, and a lot of people love that these days. Let’s face it, FFXIV is nine years old. All games that old have some kind of modding scene. Everyone seems to be happy with it, even (and especially) with FFLogs. Whatever Yoshida wanted with a causal MMO is no longer valid when he outsourced so much of his game under community control. The mob decides what the rules are, and they’ve spoken loud and clear. Sadly, those looking for the classic, vanilla experience will have to move to console and not run any endgame content outside of PF.

By the way, static leaders can and do look up your raid resume on FFLogs. Many people will defend this as adding to the core game. There’s not much we can do about it if we want to enter a static. So even if you’re not running mods, you’re affected by them in the most invasive way possible: having all of your instances logged for public view without your consent. And because the mob generally overpowers the concerned few, it’s really out of our hands if we want to join a static. Most of us are powerless in this sort of environment when they have a substantial software-based advantage over us teetotalers.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Add-ins and plugins are becoming more widely-accepted across the community and even casual players love to use them. It’s become an integral part of the game experience on PC. Not everyone uses them, but a good chunk do. It’s a bit like WoW, and a lot of people love that these days. Let’s face it, FFXIV is nine years old. All games that old have some kind of modding scene. Everyone seems to be happy with it, even (and especially) with FFLogs. Whatever Yoshida wanted with a causal MMO is no longer valid when he outsourced so much of his game under community control. The mob decides what the rules are, and they’ve spoken loud and clear. Sadly, those looking for the classic, vanilla experience will have to move to console and not run any endgame content outside of PF.

By the way, static leaders can and do look up your raid resume on FFLogs. Many people will defend this as adding to the core game. There’s not much we can do about it if we want to enter a static. So even if you’re not running mods, you’re affected by them in the most invasive way possible: having all of your instances logged for public view without your consent. And because the mob generally overpowers the concerned few, it’s really out of our hands if we want to join a static. Most of us are powerless in this sort of environment when they have a substantial software-based advantage over us teetotalers.

That argument with widely accepted mods in gaming community only holds true if the company of devs say its ok. Its not really much of an issue with single-player games because nobody is seriously going to care but I found a lot of the online addon community stems from Western games and its a mentality I see with this side of the world.

Now facing a team where they really dont want you to use addons for their game should be up to them. It really shouldnt be the mob deciding what goes what and I find this mentality extremely unhealthy. The most they can do to mitigate the toxicity is by doing this middleground. Its seriously just people being salty when they get caught and acting like its SE's fault for enforcing their ToS.

[Saraide]

Add-ins and plugins are becoming more widely-accepted across the community and even casual players love to use them. It’s become an integral part of the game experience on PC. Not everyone uses them, but a good chunk do. It’s a bit like WoW, and a lot of people love that these days. Let’s face it, FFXIV is nine years old. All games that old have some kind of modding scene. Everyone seems to be happy with it, even (and especially) with FFLogs. Whatever Yoshida wanted with a causal MMO is no longer valid when he outsourced so much of his game under community control. The mob decides what the rules are, and they’ve spoken loud and clear. Sadly, those looking for the classic, vanilla experience will have to move to console and not run any endgame content outside of PF.

By the way, static leaders can and do look up your raid resume on FFLogs. Many people will defend this as adding to the core game. There’s not much we can do about it if we want to enter a static. So even if you’re not running mods, you’re affected by them in the most invasive way possible: having all of your instances logged for public view without your consent. And because the mob generally overpowers the concerned few, it’s really out of our hands if we want to join a static. Most of us are powerless in this sort of environment when they have a substantial software-based advantage over us teetotalers.

Static leaders have the responsibility to keep groups running as smooth as possible according to the expectations of the group. That includes deciding who is a good fit for the group in terms of skill. No one else seriously cares about your logs. People suffer far more from their own unfounded insecurity about people seeing their performance than other people actually judging you.

[Azuri]

Ah yes, by page 8 we are discussing how someone making a personal decision who to party up with for group content is the terrible boogeyman. As scheduled.

Yoshi mentally lives in a cuckoo world where everyone loves each other and every underperformer gets their personal little happy carry-pony who just smiles and drags them to victory. Real people don't work that way though.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Ah yes, by page 8 we are discussing how someone making a personal decision who to party up with for group content is the terrible boogeyman. As scheduled.

Yoshi mentally lives in a cuckoo world where everyone loves each other and every underperformer gets their personal little happy carry-pony who just smiles and drags them to victory. Real people don't work that way though.

Page 8 and we already have both side act so extreme. It's getting old ya'll

[Azuri]

Page 8 and we already have both side act so extreme. It's getting old ya'll

Don't quote me for this, I did try to expedite from the very first page.

[caffe_macchiato]

Ah yes, by page 8 we are discussing how someone making a personal decision who to party up with for group content is the terrible boogeyman. As scheduled.

Yoshi mentally lives in a cuckoo world where everyone loves each other and every underperformer gets their personal little happy carry-pony who just smiles and drags them to victory. Real people don't work that way though.

Very true. As I said, it’s not up to Yoshida, but the community itself. And even though the American community is rigorous in enforcing parses for statics, the Japanese one is even worse, with shared blacklists and doxxing campaigns against those with bad numbers.

I only wish that new players were made aware of this reality before investing their time in this game. Had I known several years ago just how bad the game would get, I likely wouldn’t have ever bothered. The casual content has been getting progressively shallower and more sparse, leaving only savage as the redeeming value of our subscription. And that has progressively turned more and more WoW-like, as your post illustrated. So many people are getting suckered in to this game thinking it’s a decent casual and non-toxic experience when, as you said, it’s anything but.

In other words, people think FFXIV is a respite from a competitive world when, instead, it reinforces it and its Darwinian savagery. Yoshida just keeps ripping people off with lies and false hopes. The world is cruel and FFXIV is no different.

[Absimiliard]

The best part of the whole debate is how often the most outspoken people on both sides of it absolutely suck at the game.