Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[SannaR]

Do we really need another round of what the souls of the third sacrifice were in debate? How does animals and plants make any sense with how Zodiark operates. Or at least with how little we know of how he operates. You'd think they wouldn't want any souls stuck inside of Zodiark. Since those souls wouldn't be able to return to the star.

Unless you play soul switcheroo every now and then or idk maybe just not offer up souls to a primal who even if it is " "Just a tug" " when it may or may not come to tempering of his summoners. Just a tug gets added to with each summoning I assume. It's easy to assume or say the 3rd sacrifice hinted at only wanting to release the 1st sacrifice which is kinda yikes about those who we again we are to assume that those who were part of the second were volunteers. You know if the 3rd wasn't to just get the 1st set out and get both of the 1st two out. Which again still leaves you with souls trapped inside of a primal regardless of if that soul was a person, animal or a plant. For those who wonder how Zodiark gets painted as a blood God this is how it happens. He also can be easily made into a Staple's easy button for any hardships the Ancients might come across down the road. I.e if they kept him around since you know for all the gen public and the convocation know he's the only reason the Final Days stopped. They also had him change and keep in place how some of the aether currents ran which we're just now finding out what reversing that change means and looks like.

So you either paint post Final Days but pre-sundering Ancients as people who only care about old, thick and chunky Ancient souls and not actually caring anymore about souls not being able to return to the star regardless of any differences they might have. Or you paint them still caring about that and having just as much uncomfort about those different newer souls being stuck in there and needing at least a fourth sacrifice of something to get the newer souls out. As just letting them stay inside Zodiark wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

[jameseoakes]

Do we really need another round of what the souls of the third sacrifice were in debate? How does animals and plants make any sense with how Zodiark operates. Or at least with how little we know of how he operates. You'd think they wouldn't want any souls stuck inside of Zodiark. Since those souls wouldn't be able to return to the star.

Unless you play soul switcheroo every now and then or idk maybe just not offer up souls to a primal who even if it is " "Just a tug" " when it may or may not come to tempering of his summoners. Just a tug gets added to with each summoning I assume. It's easy to assume or say the 3rd sacrifice hinted at only wanting to release the 1st sacrifice which is kinda yikes about those who we again we are to assume that those who were part of the second were volunteers. You know if the 3rd wasn't to just get the 1st set out and get both of the 1st two out. Which again still leaves you with souls trapped inside of a primal regardless of if that soul was a person, animal or a plant. For those who wonder how Zodiark gets painted as a blood God this is how it happens. He also can be easily made into a Staple's easy button for any hardships the Ancients might come across down the road. I.e if they kept him around since you know for all the gen public and the convocation know he's the only reason the Final Days stopped. They also had him change and keep in place how some of the aether currents ran which we're just now finding out what reversing that change means and looks like.

So you either paint post Final Days but pre-sundering Ancients as people who only care about old, thick and chunky Ancient souls and not actually caring anymore about souls not being able to return to the star regardless of any differences they might have. Or you paint them still caring about that and having just as much uncomfort about those different newer souls being stuck in there and needing at least a fourth sacrifice of something to get the newer souls out. As just letting them stay inside Zodiark wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

Honestly I think these will keep happening as Zodiark is such a mess. It makes no sense for the ancients to sacrifice people to it as there are no people to sacrifice to it. The writing on Endwalker Zodiark was frankly terrible and a complete mess that really didn't seem to care about what was written before

[Lurina]

Again, I think people bringing up the "were the sacrifices actually people" thing are less saying that they literally believe it was the writer intent for them to be wild animals or plants or what-have-you, because that would be bizarre and make the entire situation stupid. The problem is more that there's nothing self-evidently obvious for the sacrifices to be, because the writers obviously de-emphasized the plot point within the wider Sundering scenario in the transition between Shadowbringers and Endwalker - they barely get a mention. This makes the storyline tonally confusing when you go from one expansion to another, and leaves it harder to intuitively understand or sympathize with the motives of the Hydaelyn faction.

It's a pretty standard "show, don't tell" issue. We are told that they were fighting to preserve life, but are given no face or form of that life, so there's nothing to sink ones teeth into intellectually or emotionally. We can't make any concrete judgement of the situation because the situation is vague, which becomes a bit of a sticky wicket when you're trying to sell eradicating a race of people as a necessary and good thing.

Regarding being tired of the lore forums being negative, I think there's a disagreement happening here about the purpose these forums actually serve. If you go to the suggestions and feedback section of the contact page on the FFXIV website, it directs you here. This is not a space for fans to gush together about the ways they like the game, it's a dumping ground for people to put their thoughts and feelings about it in a place we have been told the developers sometimes (well, theoretically) read. That's why it's gated by having an active subscription.

FFXIV is corporate art - before it's a work of creative expression, it's a product designed to extract profit for shareholders. The writing isn't an exception to that. However much of themselves the Main Scenario Team might've poured into Endwalker, I guarantee they were constrained by following a style guide and a team of editors and reviewers that fundamentally limited the kind of story they could tell with it. So I don't think it's wrong to be a bit unsentimental.

[KageTokage]

On a note pertaining to the actual story itself, a thought suddenly occurred to me that given how the effects of dyanmis were far more extreme on the sundered due to their lower aetheric density, would/could not the same potentially apply to the star itself?

The story mentioned how a distant star had gained some semblance of sentience through the power of dynamis, which really makes me wonder if maybe it's had some kind of influence on Etheriys that could end up being the "great change" that's been hinted at.

[RyuDragnier]

On a note pertaining to the actual story itself, a thought suddenly occurred to me that given how the effects of dyanmis were far more extreme on the sundered due to their lower aetheric density, would/could not the same potentially apply to the star itself?

The story mentioned how a distant star had gained some semblance of sentience through the power of dynamis, which really makes me wonder if maybe it's had some kind of influence on Etheriys that could end up being the "great change" that's been hinted at.

I think it's very likely that Etheirys already had a will of its own originally. But that's probably just my writer mode thinking about how much of an interesting twist it would be for there to have already been one. It would have been enraged by both Hydaelyn and Zodiark right before the Sundering, and probably have either been trying to release something that could destroy both of them and the Ancients so it could start all over with the new souls/life. Which would have been the thing Azem was busy dealing with right when the Sundering was taking place, thus explaining why Azem didn't take a side or was involved with the Sundering, there was a bigger threat.

[Tehmon]

We have entered a state of Etheirys that is out of the influence of ancients, ascians, Zodiark and Hydaelyn. That has to amount to something story-wise. Though I hope whatever potential gradual change Etheirys might be going through in the next arc isn't going to end up in another Final Day-esque calamity where the star just wants to kill its population for some ridiculous reason. Nah, they'll have to come up with something more interesting than another looming apocalypse.

[RyuDragnier]

We have entered a state of Etheirys that is out of the influence of ancients, ascians, Zodiark and Hydaelyn. That has to amount to something story-wise. Though I hope whatever potential gradual change Etheirys might be going through in the next arc isn't going to end up in another Final Day-esque calamity where the star just wants to kill its population for some ridiculous reason. Nah, they'll have to come up with something more interesting than another looming apocalypse.

I don't think it will be, to an extent. If there is a Will of the Star currently, it's probably more relieved than anything about us having shut up that blasted Song of Oblivion. Now something happening on accident that results in more interesting worldwide phenomenon, like parts of the Shards merging with the Source, that would be more interesting. Not Calamity level destructive merging, but a gradual over time thing that can cause a few conflicts but also throw us off as to what happens next. Like pink trees from Lakeland appearing in Mor Dhona, NPCs from the First suddenly appearing in the Source without explanation other than being ghostly and basically "flickering" between being on the First and the Source, as if the Will of the Star itself doesn't know where they're supposed to be put at. Things that imply a merging of worlds but not in a global catastrophe level.

[KageTokage]

That prophecy from the Golden Dhyata suggests that something about the Lifestream is changing that will eventually bring widespread disaster like rivers drying up and mountains crumbling, so "looming apocalypse" seems fairly probable.

[Iscah]

Honestly I think these will keep happening as Zodiark is such a mess. It makes no sense for the ancients to sacrifice people to it as there are no people to sacrifice to it. The writing on Endwalker Zodiark was frankly terrible and a complete mess that really didn't seem to care about what was written before

The problem is, it's a debate we are unlikely to get any further insight into. So our options are to spend forever arguing over how the plot should be interpreted if we knew key details that don't exist, or we can move on to discussing other aspect of the game while treating this part of the game as a big question mark that we don't have the information to resolve properly.

Ultimately, all that matters here and now is that the Sundering did happen, and the details are irrelevant to what we do from this point onwards.

[Tehmon]

I don't think it will be, to an extent. If there is a Will of the Star currently, it's probably more relieved than anything about us having shut up that blasted Song of Oblivion. Now something happening on accident that results in more interesting worldwide phenomenon, like parts of the Shards merging with the Source, that would be more interesting. Not Calamity level destructive merging, but a gradual over time thing that can cause a few conflicts but also throw us off as to what happens next. Like pink trees from Lakeland appearing in Mor Dhona, NPCs from the First suddenly appearing in the Source without explanation other than being ghostly and basically "flickering" between being on the First and the Source, as if the Will of the Star itself doesn't know where they're supposed to be put at. Things that imply a merging of worlds but not in a global catastrophe level.

If we are to have rejoinings now, I'd rather them cause more cultural, political, territorial and societal conflicts rather than being a straight up calamity that threatens the lives of all of Etheirys. Though with rejoining with the First in such a physical way you're suggesting, one has to wonder about the flood and how it rendered most of said shard unlivable, and how that'd work with this story line. That would be a huge mess with most of the Source being succumbed to the flood, no?