Illegitimate waymarkers for P7s

[Raoabolic]

"Being a hypocrite" would be selectively and arbitrarily deciding to just not enforce ToS.

*sees all those bots run around the non jp servers*
lol

[Jijifli]

Nope. SQEX has outright said they will not take action against people for having or using the waymarks. People can sure report you for it, but SQEX has already said -- on the official blog, no less -- that they will ignore said reports.

The problem, however, is just because Yoshida said it as such, does not mean that the GM's will feel the same about it.

Yoshida has also gone on record to state GM's stance and his stance have had conflict. And that's ignoring the extra consideration of just how vocal the JP community can get on that stuff. They hate anything that 'avoids the law' and if they make a big enough stink about somebody, they might just slap it anyways rather than risk the idea that they don't enforce their ToS.

[Beddict]

they've acknowledged it was a poor choice on their part to have the arena grow after the fight is underway, for precisely this reason.

Which is the wrong takeaway for the devs. The big issue is changing the arena back at the end of the fight. You spend a little over 80% of the fight with the arena in the triple platform layout, the enrage occurs with the platform in the triple platform layout, then you kill the boss and it reverts to the single platform for no reason. The solution is simple: don't revert the arena at the end. It's something they've done before too, just look at Diamond Weapon EX. You load into the fight, there's only one platform, second spawns, finish the fight, and the second platform remains. The arena change persisted after the fight was complete so people could easily place waymarks without third party tools. In fact, this is something they acknowledge they've done in the past. To quote The Lodestone post itself:

However, in consideration of duties where the battlefield changes during the battle, we allow players to place waymarks for the changed battlefield after completing the duty and save them to be used next time. Therefore, waymarks loaded from the save slots are not determined by whether or not they are in contact with the ground.

So yeah, that's all they need to do, keep the triple platform layout after the clear, and probably move the loot chests so they appear on the north bridge or something. Except they aren't actually gonna go with the simple solution for whatever reason, and instead "certain fields will be made slightly larger so that it will be possible to set the same waymark coordinates as in the currently widespread data, but through legitimate means." Clearly the smarter solution than just doing what they've done in the past with fights that have changed arena layouts. The whole situation is dumb, the arena changing back at the end should've been caught by the team that playtested the fight, and it sounds like they're making more work for themselves in the long run.

[AwesomeJr44]

The solution is simple: don't revert the arena at the end.

Even simpler solution: Have the arena be slightly larger (large enough to encompass any space that would be made later) and once the arena changes, it never goes back to that size until after the boss is dead. If you look at P7S, the initial large circle platform is destroyed almost immediately, so why not have the initial platform be larger, break it, and have any subsequent similar platforms (like the one before the towers and birds) in the fight be the normal size? This would make it so that you don't have to clear the fight to place proper markers. That's important because typically markers help you prog the fight, and thus having to wait until you've already cleared to come up with a proper marker set kinda defeats the purpose of them. (Yes you can get markers from people who already have cleared but that shouldn't be mandatory to get proper markers pre-clear)

(And I'm pretty sure this is the solution they're going with, so everyone wins)

[hagare]

the difference is, console players get to do it too when SE makes it legally.

[Raoabolic]

*can no longer have arenas change size because waymarks are being put down too early*
*still can only queue for a single roulette at a time*
*bots are still running around under the geometry of Ul'dah*
*classes are becoming so sterilized all we are stuck with is the blue, green, or red dps*
*devs wondering why people who pay attention to the story are lukewarm to EW*
Cool priorities there SE. :^) *thumbs up*

[Packetdancer]

Which is the wrong takeaway for the devs. The big issue is changing the arena back at the end of the fight. You spend a little over 80% of the fight with the arena in the triple platform layout, the enrage occurs with the platform in the triple platform layout, then you kill the boss and it reverts to the single platform for no reason.

I disagree, and here's why: if you only didn't revert it at the end (a'la Diamond Weapon), you'd need to clear the fight before you could put down your waymarks (which are, let's be honest, mostly useful for illustrative purposes during prog).

I think the takeaway here is that where feasible, you should be able to lay waymarks across the entirety of the valid battlefield -- even if that battlefield changes -- both before and after the fight, at least for any of the more serious endgame content, but most crucially before.

Sure, there are things where it would be hard to do it all at once. The Engles fight in Copied Factory comes to mind; you start on one platform, and end on the other, meaning the arena you set the marks on pre-pull and the arena you end on aren't just a different shape, they're in an entirely different spot; if you want marks on both platforms you'd need to lay out the one half pre-pull (on the first platform) and then the second set after the fight (on the second). Diamond Weapon, as you note, you don't have a second platform to get onto pre-pull and thus no way to make markers there.

In that case, having the arena not change back -- having the part you can't lay things out on ahead-of-time be the form it stays as at the end -- is at least a good secondary option.

I just think it's a bad one for this particular fight, where you spend arguably the majority of the fight with the arena in that configuration, but have no way prior to the fight to lay out relevant waymarks in order to prog that fight. In which case, just making the original arena bigger, and then dropping the edge off when the fight starts (remove it with the first smash of the platform, as was suggested earlier in the thread) solves the problem. You can even restore the original size at the end, if you need.

[Themarvin]

Using an unfair advantage that for an instance = ban hammer.

If can't beat the game as it was intended, find another game to play.

[Vukimukinukiduki]

Ah yes,
SE: we gonna create problem
Player solves problem
SE: We gonna ban you but implement this solution later because we are idiots and didn't even thought about problem we created

[Banggugyangu]

There's a lot of incorrect information happening here that I'll address:

1: Markers, when placed, DO NOT disappear through the fight. The issue in play is the fact that the illegitimate markers are placed in areas where there is no ground during the beginning of the fight. It is impossible to place said markers with the legitimate marker system.

2: SE is NOT implementing the means to place markers where no ground contact exists. SE is instead going to avoid designing fights where markers may need to be placed outside of the initial arena ground contact.

3: The markers in question are useful for ONLY 1 mechanic. It's considered probably the most difficult mechanic in the fight, but that's the only mechanic where they're actually useful. My current static just finished progging this mechanic without said markers, and it's not really that big of a deal, IMO. If you NEED these markers to succeed at this mechanic, then, and this will sound harsh..., you should probably improve your gameplay. (TLR Git good)

4: It's not hypocritical to ban someone for using a third party tool, even if you take away a lesson or elements of said tool to implement into the game. He isn't banned for placing markers, he's banned for doing something against ToS. I'll use a real life example to make my point. If someone lives in a state that has not legalized a certain recreational substance, and they are caught and go to prison for said substance, they should not be pardoned if that substance is later legalized. It's not the substance itself that they went to prison over. It was their conscious decision to break the law. Regardless if that substance is later legalized, they still chose to break the law. Said person is a criminal regardless of whether the law changed or not. The same applies to someone breaking ToS and being banned. He chose to break ToS. Implementing his idea does not pardon his decision to break ToS.

All that said, I do agree that there are other, more pressing matters that I feel even the enforcement team should focus on. The amount of RMT spam I get is troubling. I'm at the point where I with SE would bring the hammer down on both sides of RMT, honestly. If the buyer goes away, the seller won't have a business.