Damage "taxes" deserve serious reconsideration

[remiff]

I reaffirm it again the real utility for the team is the mitigation spells, but the increased healing effects, regenerations,etc,... are just flavor more than utility.

It is unjustifiable to tax these spells.
also the personal survival tools that all DPS job have, even Melee, and yet they are not taxed.
Monk: Riddle of Earth, Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint. (Mantra for the team 10% healing increase).
Ninja: shade Shift,Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint.
SAM: Third Eye,Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint.
DRG: lifesurge,Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint.
RPR: arcane crest,Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint.

The only melee DPS that doesn't really have any personnal dmg reduction is the dragoon other tools are on the role actions that all melee have which are stronger than Caster/ranged DPS.

Melee have no DPS tax for this personal mitigation other than the reaper which is unjustifiable,
and is not in line with the latest squareenix comments on taxes. (only the dragoon does not have one '' personnal mitigation'').

Personally I think personal defense tools or increased healing/regen on DPS job should be considered flavor and not be taxed,
the monk has a higher number of tools than his competitor and yet his does not prevent him from being the best Melee in the game today.

Square enix must revise their unjustifiable taxes drastically downwards, and must stop taxing jobs tools,
on ranged/caster DPS and ''easy jobs''.

The more than dubious choices of the devs should not have an impact on the performance of a job whatever it is.

[Keichi]

Rangers can not make the same dmg as meele, simply because of the concept of beeing ranged.
There wouldnt be any reason to choice meele (except for taste), would ranger have the same dmg as meele. Without the risk of beeing meele (in most cases is it more risky to be close to the enemy, some even have traps for meele, by casting very fast close aoe attacks, without warning).

Best example, but off topic, is the sneak archer from skyrim. He make the biggest dmg and has the advangte of range. There is practicly no reason, to not play him.
Something similary would be, if the rangers in this game had the same dmg.

Caster have the distance advangte over the meele. So, they make less dmg. But, they are above the Rangers, because, they attack slower, can at some points not attack. And, have in theorie a limit of there attacks (mp). In theorie, because, Blm has practicly endless mp, because of his ice phase. And at last by a puppet was i not able, to reduce my mp to zero, when i tested the summoner.
But, the concept is there, that they have drawbacks, that justify there advangte over rangers.

What drawback should the rangers have, when not lesser dmg than the other two?
Limited attacks, like ammunition, that would be similary to mp?
Lesser hp/def for beeing able to run away from enemies and attacking at the same time (was in the story sometimes usefull).

Or other question.
How much is the difference of rangers vs meele, if the meele is not able to use allways position?
True North is limited and bosses are moving so much around or are so big, that it can become hard, to allways use the Extra dmg of position (i dont bother much with position, when i play meele, because it is a pain to try to hit each time the right side).

That the mch is making lesser rdps is simpl coming from the point, that he act solo. Where the other two obtaining there rdps by taking some numbers from the partymembers, who obtained bufs from the ranger.
It is practicly 8 vs 1 in this case.
Are most partner are weakened or dead, is the number of this two lower and the mch has the upper hand.

[ZiraZ]

I reaffirm it again the real utility for the team is the mitigation spells, but the increased healing effects, regenerations,etc,... are just flavor more than utility.

It is unjustifiable to tax these spells.
also the personal survival tools that all DPS job have, even Melee, and yet they are not taxed.
Monk: Riddle of Earth, Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint. (Mantra for the team 10% healing increase).
Ninja: shade Shift,Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint.
SAM: Third Eye,Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint.
DRG: lifesurge,Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint.
RPR: arcane crest,Second Wind,Bloodbath,Feint.

The only melee DPS that doesn't really have any personnal dmg reduction is the dragoon other tools are on the role actions that all melee have which are stronger than Caster/ranged DPS.

Melee have no DPS tax for this personal mitigation other than the reaper which is unjustifiable,
and is not in line with the latest squareenix comments on taxes. (only the dragoon does not have one '' personnal mitigation'').

Personally I think personal defense tools or increased healing/regen on DPS job should be considered flavor and not be taxed,
the monk has a higher number of tools than his competitor and yet his does not prevent him from being the best Melee in the game today.

Square enix must revise their unjustifiable taxes drastically downwards, and must stop taxing jobs tools,
on ranged/caster DPS and ''easy jobs''.

The more than dubious choices of the devs should not have an impact on the performance of a job whatever it is.

I don't know if I read that wrong, but did you just say melee role actions are stronger than addle or range damage reduction buffs?

[Aikaal]

Rangers can not make the same dmg as meele, simply because of the concept of beeing ranged.
There wouldnt be any reason to choice meele (except for taste), would ranger have the same dmg as meele. Without the risk of beeing meele (in most cases is it more risky to be close to the enemy, some even have traps for meele, by casting very fast close aoe attacks, without warning).

As the fights are currently designed, melees are ranged physical with a 10% damage buff. There's only 1 part of p8s that a melee MAY lose 1 GCD. Melee should still do more than ranged but by like 2% to 3%.

[remiff]

I don't know if I read that wrong, but did you just say melee role actions are stronger than addle or range damage reduction buffs?

No, I'm just saying that they have more tools in action roles, which allow them to recover hp.
sorry if you misunderstood, after all English is not my native language.

I'm not saying that addle isn't powerful, but that casters have no equivalent to recover HP, only ranged DPS share ''second wind''.

[Semirhage]

The utility tax isn't arbitrary. Imagine if SAM or BLM had raid utility with the already current dps they pump out. There's no way they could leave them with the dps output they have while having a raid buff.

Its existence isn't arbitrary in an otherwise balanced system. Right now SAM and BLM are clowning all over raidbuff-providing jobs in both rDPS and aDPS. The melees and black mage are doing so much more damage than the ranged and casters that it's ridiculous. While we don't want a scenario where the high aDPS jobs gain a raid buff, right now they don't need to. They're outperforming the buffers already.

This isn't me disagreeing, I'm saying that things are already in that worse scenario you mentioned without those prerequisites.

[CKNovel]

Best example, but off topic, is the sneak archer from skyrim. He make the biggest dmg and has the advangte of range. There is practicly no reason, to not play him.
Something similary would be, if the rangers in this game had the same dmg.

Not only this is off topic but you compare two completely different games.
You go in P7S with current strategies, register your performance and show us how many times you had to go outside the hitbox of the boss and how many positionnals you missed, okay?
You'll also count how many times casters, physical ranged and melee are getting hit. Spoilers: It's almost the same, around 2-3 set of damage only influenced by RNG and not range.

Then we will be able to talk.

Just for your information, even if you managed to miss all your positionnals your DPS would barely move.
I'm sorry but you lack experience to give a relevant feedback. You are talking about the world when you only know your city.

[magzillas]

Ranged tax never applied to casters. Not sure why OP clumped them into it.

Because that's the only justification I can think of for why casters and ranged physical are - as a group - putting out less damage than melee.

If this casters being taxed for their range isn't the case, why is BLM consistently doing less damage, on average, than every melee job, despite MNK and RPR's additional defensive utility, the generally higher survivability of melee jobs, and BLM's hardcasting requirements?

[Flashy]

Because that's the only justification I can think of for why casters and ranged physical are - as a group - putting out less damage than melee.

If this casters being taxed for their range isn't the case, why is BLM consistently doing less damage, on average, than every melee job, despite MNK and RPR's additional defensive utility, the generally higher survivability of melee jobs, and BLM's hardcasting requirements?

Probably because you're looking at rDPS and not aDPS, aDPS is the metric you should be looking at for jobs that do not have raid buffs. rDPS is a meme because as a SAM or BLM, I can just dump all my cooldowns immediately, not care about using xenoglossy during raid buffs and skipping my filler as SAM in order to get extra midares

SAM and BLM are right where they should be for aDPS, both of them are providing the best damage contribution under raid buffs

[ZiraZ]

Because that's the only justification I can think of for why casters and ranged physical are - as a group - putting out less damage than melee.

If this casters being taxed for their range isn't the case, why is BLM consistently doing less damage, on average, than every melee job, despite MNK and RPR's additional defensive utility, the generally higher survivability of melee jobs, and BLM's hardcasting requirements?

Every melee job? The only job beating BLM on aDPS is SAM