VIERA AND HROTHGAR COMPLAINT MEGATHREAD

[LuciaMirain]

Au Ra also won't be updated. But don't be surprised. They haven't mentioned the three expansion races. Them not saying anything hints at it; I'd be more surprised if suddenly they said "No, actually, we're doing it to expansion-locked races as well, Au Ra included".

Them "confirming by lack of info" is a recurring trend, even when it's a positive. E.g. the Hrothgar hairstyles situation: they just showed us the Snow hairstyle with ears without any comment.

And if I'm allowed the tangent on that aspect: I'm honestly really pleased with Square addressing those hairstyles, even if silently. It's clear they at least realized that yes, people are indeed accepting of clipping rather than them randomly removing ears. Though, we don't know if this will apply to every hairstyle or just the Snow one. I just wish other players didn't jump it on this one ^^;
From what I've seen on this thread, especially at the time the news dropped, most Hrothgars were like "Oh, cool!" while other players, predominantly Viera-avatared ones, were like "this is nothing, I'm not pleased". Ironic that I'd be the one to say this, but those players should calm down. The majority of Hrothgar players expected absolutely nothing from them past 6.1, especially after their silence in the face of the attention it garnered, so them doing anything at all is surprising. To us, it isn't "nothing". It's small, very small, and it may feel from the outside that we're settling for less. But keep in mind how Hrothgar players so far have been patient and their voices have been rather quiet up until April 1st. As much as people insist we're on the same boat, we're not, so what little we get, we're happy for it. Naturally we wish it were different, and of course we view it as them having a long way to go. So don't mistake our contentment as settling. Because so far, the least has been zero :| My point is... it wasn't for you, it was for us. Our opinion should be valued, over that of those this change won't affect. And while we're obviously asking for a bit more than "give us our ears back", at the end of the day a win's a win. And if they heard us juuust enough to do this for us, even if begrudgingly >w>, then they might listen to you guys and do better in the future. Especially since, as Adamantini has pointed out, I've seen a good handful of Male Viera who want flowy long hair. And we will, or should, support you so that can happen.

Until then, may Hrothgars also get the stuff that they need to be seen as equals to everyone else, and may Viera ears actually work and get the headgear they deserve.



This is odd, given they made different hairs for Miqo'te in the past.

I am sorry, my English is not amazing and my attention span at long texts is even worse: But are you saying that viera avatars shouldn't complain when Hrothgars get very little because it doesn't concern them? I am confused?

[Midareyukki]

I am sorry, my English is not amazing and my attention span at long texts is even worse: But are you saying that viera avatars shouldn't complain when Hrothgars get very little because it doesn't concern them? I am confused?

Kind of? I'm saying that players in general shouldn't just say "Oh this is nothing" when to the one group of people this change affects it does matter. A lot. And that those people should keep that in mind. We all know it's not much, but that's no reason to discredit or downplay the importance of what happened. From the outside, it's minimal, it's nothing, it's virtually "no work done". It's the bare minimum. But if you play a Hrothgar, and especially after what happened on April 1st, it's really not something minor. Because we expected nothing to be done. IF Square wanted to give us back our ears, we were expecting it to take longer than 6.2. So them doing it now really shouldn't be downplayed.

Hrothgars never had anything. You can count Bozja as the devs acknowledging Hrothgar exist in the game, but that story isn't very good. And playable content is one thing. The race has design issues that were never acknowledged. Viera did get acknowledgement from the dev team, but Hrothgar almost never got mentioned. When they were, they were just grouped up with Vieras. It made sense back then, but not after 3 years.

The fact that it was mostly people with Viera avatars is probably coincidence. After all, these are threads where the majority of people are likely to be Viera players. I'd still say this if the people saying it were Lalafells, Hyurs, Au Ra, Miqo'te...

The reason I pointed out I've seen Viera players do it the most was because of the ongoing sentiment that "Oh this affects both Hrothgar and Viera". And after 3 years, those two races have problems that the other doesn't have. There are differences in how the devs have been treating both the races. They've been treating both poorly, but one of the two has always been treated worse. Even when both of them were treated badly at the same time.

And it's my personal belief that... well, yes, Hrothgar and Viera ARE in the same sinking ship. But they're on different parts of the boat. So while they should help eachother and support eachother to make sure both races get finished properly, we shouldn't do negative comments on that whenever the other side gets something, no matter how minor we think it is. At least not if what the devs do is a good thing, even if it looks small.

Imagine if Adamantini asked for long hair. Yoshida gives male Vieras long hair. And suddenly a bunch of Hrothgar come in and say "That's nothing!!". Yes, one single hairstyle might look like nothing to us, but for Adamantini who's been asking for it for a while, it isn't "nothing". And it's a milestone to getting Male Viera to the standard everyone else wants it to have. How would you think he and other male Viera would feel to see that?

Male Viera getting longer hair like Adamantini wants isn't bad. Nor is Square giving them any. But when most Hrothgars don't say anything about their ears coming back being "minor" and you have players of other races that likely never touched Hrothgar say it is, it's kind of sad. Because we haven't really gotten anything good lately. This was the bare minimum for people say it was "minor", and that's a valid opinion. But don't just say that, because it downplays the gain that Hrothgars got. Again: we thought we weren't even going to get anything.

[LuciaMirain]

I think when people say "that is nothing" it is because they mean you deserve more. You can be happy about the little things ofc, but severals years since release it is quite silly that the devs throw hrotghars and vieras a crumb and we are supposed to be thankful.
If you feel uncomfortable calling out a massive company like SE - sure - don't. If you are truly happy with so little - sure But it feels a bit like shaming us that actually think that the races should be, in some shape or form, equal to the others. And right now they aren't. Not even close.

And I honestly believe that without those really disappointed players both here in the English forums and in the japanese forums, vieras and hroths wouldn't have gotten anything at all. They would've been left as an even more limited than they are now.

[Midareyukki]

I think that's a good mindset to have. I really do.

The problem is when people don't say anything past "This is nothing". Because they don't make it clear that that's the sentiment they have. They don't make it clear that it's a good thing for Hrothgars to have that, no matter how minimal the change is.

I think it's safe to say no Hrothgar is happy that this is the best we got. But I don't think many Hrothgar had any hope that this would be changed in 6.2 either, given how Square has been working.

Plus, after so many people calling us whiny, saying that our criticisms weren't valid, that Hrothgars getting angry and frustrated was unfair and insulting to the dev team, I've seen a lot of Hrothgar just resign and ask for the bare minimum. Because support was really muted. And hey, bare minimum is what we got.

The point wasn't that "it's bad to complain that we're getting the bare minimum".
The point was "guys, we weren't even meant to get anything, can't we just have one singular win that doesn't feel like people that don't even play Hrothgar want to hammer down?".

If you feel uncomfortable calling out a massive company like SE - sure - don't.

Hi, have you met me? I'm VERY willing to throw down punches if it means telling SE to get good!! xD

I'm the one player here in the forums that NEVER shuts up about how the situation after April 1st went! So... yeah, "those really disappointed players"? I'm literally one of them! I'm the guy that never once shut up about this for months! Hell, ask half the people in this thread, I'm probably known for being that one annoying guy that never shuts up

The issue is that when you say you feel disappointed in the forums, when you express your frustration and anger and ask the devs (both politely and... "less respectfuly"), it doesn't matter. Someone's always just going to clamp it down.

That's why I'm taking the win where I see it. I'm not settling for less. I'm not going to stop fighting for BOTH our races to have the respect they deserve. Me asking people to acknowledge that Hrothgars had a win, even if very small, and not just bring negativity, isn't me giving the devs any good faith.
I'm not defending the devs. I'm defending the Hrothgar players who wanted so much more, got told to shut up, and asked for just one thing.

[LuciaMirain]

Ok, if that is what you mean, I really haven't seen anything like that besides from very few people that basically hate any criticism against SE and who gives af what they think anyway? Damn bootlickers. I disagree with you that we should take the win and be all like "woo thanks". No. I am more: "Is that really all youve got, are you gonna make more umbrellas nobody wants instead of giving back my ears?". Nah, I ain't having it. I want to play viera but being one made me honestly sad and angry. I am an endgame player. I have cleared all ultimates, savages and so on, and I am a massive glammer, so I get VERY annoyed when I sit for hours and hours grinding out something in savage or other content that I can't use. Putting in massive effort to get a cohesive glam but f*ck me bc the hat won't show anyway, making my glam incomplete or seeing other races get more hairstyles and me still being stuck on the few vieras have and then to be told to be thankful for the little. Nah. But I mean if that works for you then good for you .

[Midareyukki]

But I mean if that works for you then good for you .

I don't think you're understanding. It doesn't work for me. That's the thing. It just feels like it's the only thing players were allowed to want.

I guess my reaction to it is more "eh, we really need some positivity after this long".

I want more out of them, I want better out of them. This really was the absolute minimum we asked. And we really shouldn't always be expecting baby steps.

But criticism is often shut down. It's far too easy to argue that one isn't being respectful. When, really, we could do far worse. We're not like the JP players who send death threats, we simply express our frustration. It's been piling up for 3 years. And when the only one thing they give Hrothgars is just "chopped up ears and unflattering hairstyles", frustration is easily the thing that will be expressed the most. Made worse by how silent the devs tend to be, and how vague and dismissing the answers they give.

I'm not trying to shut people up with that tangent. Nor say "it's okay, we won wooo!"
We wanted more. I advocated for more. So many people did. But people kept getting angry that we tried.
What I was saying was for people to be aware that that was the only win afforded to us. To you, it looks like the bare minimum. To us, it was the bare minimum, but we were almost forced to accept it, and it's clear from the silence that Square just doesn't even want to acknowledge us. They didn't give any comment on it, they didn't state anything about it. Why? Why can't we ever get anything without the devs always being dismissive? "Because you were rude that one time"? Give me a break, that's frustration, and there's only so much you can be okay with. Three years of absolute jack crap really does justify people asking "what the damn hell". And lack of effort should be acknowledged as such. No matter how much we understand the limitations; we know there are limitations, it's THEIR job to overcome it.

Because I agree with you. We shouldn't just take the win and be like "woo thanks". Neither should you. But the circumstances were really bad for Hrothgar. And this was all we could accept without people telling us to tone it down. Because the real issue is that the moment we ask for more, people will say we're not being reasonable, that we're asking for too much and are being too mean to the development team. It does feel like if we said anything more, it'd just rile people up. This is the one win we were allowed to ask for. And I wish we could have more. I wish we could ask for more as freely as other people do.

Getting mad because people ask for unrealistic stuff, like Fem Hrothgar being released in 6.2 is fine. Because it IS unrealistic.
But when we ask for better treatment, better hairstyles, more effort from the dev team, we shouldn't have had that many people telling us to back down.

That's why it's such a win for Hrothgars. Because according to everything we've seen, a lot of my friends didn't even expect the devs to do anything. And a lot of them didn't expect we would have support, since we're not a popular race.

TLDR: It is the bare minimum. But for Hrothgar it's the one thing we were told to ask. Are we allowed to ask for more now?

[ronibosch]

This is odd, given they made different hairs for Miqo'te in the past.

This is why I was (sadly) not surprised by the April 1st live letter. It's not that SE can't give V/H quality hairs, it's that they don't care to. The fact that we have to address it over and over again for them to do the bare minimum is a shame, really.

Removal of Hrothgar ears should have never happened. That Viera 2B atrocity should have never happened. The Fantasia Hrothgar incident should have never happened.

Of course, this lack of quality control and care affects Hrothgar more than Viera. I think that the devs need to get their act together before bringing in the Hrothgals. This past live letter showing the Hrothgar Snow hair with ears is a step in the right direction, at least.

[RecoveryPotion]

This is why I was (sadly) not surprised by the April 1st live letter. It's not that SE can't give V/H quality hairs, it's that they don't care to. The fact that we have to address it over and over again for them to do the bare minimum is a shame, really.

Removal of Hrothgar ears should have never happened. That Viera 2B atrocity should have never happened. The Fantasia Hrothgar incident should have never happened.

Of course, this lack of quality control and care affects Hrothgar more than Viera. I think that the devs need to get their act together before bringing in the Hrothgals. This past live letter showing the Hrothgar Snow hair with ears is a step in the right direction, at least.

This I agree with 100%. It's like they don't care or they don't care enough to make it a priority

[LuciaMirain]

Yep, lets just leave it. I dont think you understand me either tbh.

[Midareyukki]

Yep, lets just leave it. I dont think you understand me either tbh.

I mean... I already mentioned a dozen times I'm not defending the devs nor "am okay with just this". It's not my jam and that was never what I meant. You're the one insisting on it. I get not being comfortable with the language, but I don't know how to say "No, that's not what I'm saying" any different. You are the one insinuating it all the time. But sure, whatever. I'll leave it too.

Of course, this lack of quality control and care affects Hrothgar more than Viera. I think that the devs need to get their act together before bringing in the Hrothgals. This past live letter showing the Hrothgar Snow hair with ears is a step in the right direction, at least.

This is what I've been saying for a while now:

- It's clear that, for whatever reason, these two races aren't going to see themselves be on the same standard as the others for a long while.
- Viera have issues. These issues persist on male Vieras, and ironically, male Viera have complaints of their own
- Hrothgars having issues was fine to be joined with Vieras at the time, because the issues were rather similar. But the quality level and content made for Hrothgar made it clear the devs have different priorities and interests, so the two races aren't on equal footing... you know, on top of already not being on equal footing to everyone else.
- Hrothgars presenting feedback should have started earlier imo, bc then they would have known what to expect. According to YoshiP, they were surprised at the backlash they got on April 1st... but if you're a Hrothgar player, the treatment you've gotten over 3 years really wouldn't surprise anyone.
- This is my theory, but Viera feedback being mistaken for Hrothgar feedback also led to some issues. Because you just can't design Hrothgars the way you would a Viera, it's not the same. We are aware our race is way more complex than a humanoid character.

So we need to present our feedback clearly (Viera need to make it clear what they want, and Hrothgar need to be clearer on what they want).
And we need to be realistic.

Asking for Male Viera was perfectly valid, and male Viera players are happy being male Vieras. Issue is, they have all the problems their female counterparts have, plus some of their own. And that shouldn't happen from a design standpoint as well as from a customer's viewpoint.

Meaning that asking for Female Hrothgar, while also perfectly valid, needs to be done smartly. Given all the issues with Hrothgars and the way the devs design stuff for them, whatever femgars we have might be disastrous. So it's best to make sure the race as a whole is taken seriously so future players don't suffer.

A lot of people are excited for Female Hrothgars and they have the right to do so. I'm just worried because Square should learn from past mistakes and make sure the race works well before announcing their decisions like that. And we know we're in for a while with no real updates, because the ARR races will have a texture lift while we're still stuck with lower quality and missing basic features.