Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[thegreatonemal]

Someone else posted it much earlier in the thread, but per Yoshida himself:

"Should you survive the remaining calamities, you would become our equal." Doesn't sound like a guy wanting to stop everything.

[Brinne]

"Should you survive the remaining calamities, you would become our equal." Doesn't sound like a guy wanting to stop everything.

Emet-Selch is a psychological trainwreck in Shadowbringers. That's the whole point of his arc. He's doing and saying things that are contradictory to one another and not speaking to what he truly wants throughout the entire thing, and those things will weirdly shift from one action to the next - because he's in a position where he can't make any decision that doesn't feel awful to him, so he struggles to commit to any of them, and is Waffling Real Hard. He also makes a lot of over-the-top evil speeches at Varis, and becomes pretty verbally vicious (because he's frustrated on several levels at the situation, at us, and himself) after defeating Innocence. He says deliberately antagonistic, provocative things because--even though--while he'd genuinely like to bond with the WoL and the Scions and understand one anothers' perspectives, and possibly bridge them, he's also an insecure dumbhead who both a) doesn't know how to connect with people at this point except through being irritating and obnoxious in an affected way and b) is yelling at himself for being stupid enough to actually want to try to give us yet another chance after 12K years of cruelty and betrayals.

But in his heart of hearts, Emet-Selch--solidified basically beyond doubt through Endwalker--is fundamentally a kind person who is viscerally uncomfortable with hurting other people or even seeing them in pain, most of the time. That he's forcing himself to go ahead because the alternative is leaving his people in a horrific state is why he's so unbalanced and self-sabotaging throughout Shadowbringers. He's a complex, well-written character. There are layers to him. You have to take the things he says in the greater context of understanding where he is, mentally. And also that he's a raging tsundere.

The bottom line is that the canon--through the text itself, especially via Endwalker--and through Yoshida's own word, have it in pretty indisputable terms that he was desperately hoping for some justification to stop the bloodshed while still being able to save his people. If you can't accept that as text at this point, I dunno what to say.

[thegreatonemal]

Emet-Selch is a psychological trainwreck in Shadowbringers. That's the whole point of his arc. He's doing and saying things that are contradictory to one another and not speaking to what he truly wants throughout the entire thing, and those things will weirdly shift from one action to the next - because he's in a position where he can't make any decision that doesn't feel awful to him, so he struggles to commit to any of them, and is Waffling Real Hard. He also makes a lot of over-the-top evil speeches at Varis, and becomes pretty verbally vicious (because he's frustrated on several levels at the situation, at us, and himself) after defeating Innocence. He says deliberately obnoxious, antagonistic things because--even though--while he'd genuinely like to bond with the WoL and the Scions and understand one anothers' perspectives, and possibly bridge them, he's also an insecure dumbhead who both a) doesn't know how to connect with people at this point except through being irritating and obnoxious in an affected way and b) is yelling at himself for being stupid enough to actually want to try to give us yet another chance after 12K years of cruelty and betrayals.

But in his heart of hearts, Emet-Selch--solidified basically beyond doubt through Endwalker--is fundamentally a kind person who is viscerally uncomfortable with hurting other people or even seeing them in pain, most of the time. That he's forcing himself to go ahead because the alternative is leaving his people in horrific state is why he's so unbalanced and self-sabotaging throughout Shadowbringers. He's a complex, well-written character. There are layers to him. You have to take the things he says in the greater context of understanding where he is, mentally. And also that he's a raging tsundere.

Abd the canon--through the text itself, especially via Endwalker--and through Yoshida's own word, have it in pretty indisputable terms that he was desperately hoping for some justification to stop the bloodshed while still being able to save his people. If you can't accept that as text at this point, I dunno what to say.

He's quite consistent throughout Shadowbringers. He doesn't just try to kill us outright because that hasn't worked the last two attempts and he needs to find out how the Exarch brought us here among other things, which is why he keeps asking us about him and questioning the Exarch himself. He's focused on the job at hand, which is rejoining the First, he just wants to see if we are capable in his eyes of allying with us. My quote was from before we failed the test, he referred to the people of the first as "halfmen" This isn't his first test of humanity either, the first was his "son" Who he also saw some hope in and took it back when he died.

In his heart of hearts hes devoted to his people and his world. What we see in Shadowbringers and all points before is how tempering to Zodiark has warped that.

[Brinne]

He's quite consistent throughout Shadowbringers. He doesn't just try to kill us outright because that hasn't worked the last two attempts and he needs to find out how the Exarch brought us here among other things, which is why he keeps asking us about him and questioning the Exarch himself. He's focused on the job at hand, which is rejoining the First, he just wants to see if we are capable in his eyes of allying with us. My quote was from before we failed the test, he referred to the people of the first as "halfmen" This isn't his first test of humanity either, the first was his "son" Who he also saw some hope in and took it back when he died.

In his heart of hearts hes devoted to his people and his world. What we see in Shadowbringers and all points before is how tempering to Zodiark has warped that.

Well, again, take it up with Yoshida, and the situational text in Shadowbringers and then the actual spoken text in Endwalker about how he was genuinely hoping to not have to kill us, find another solution without bloodshed, and was self-sabotaging hard because he's a psychological mess from what he's felt he's had to do. Yes, he will say cruel things about the Sundered because he's trying to hype himself up to be okay with continuing to kill them, if necessary (because fundamentally, he doesn't feel okay about it, so he has to overcompensate with bullshit.) He also tries to bond with the WoL and Scions and give them a hand in their journey because he's hopeful about not having to kill them, while simultaneously berating himself for what he intellectually knows is such a stupid hope - that's the depth of that "fundamentally kind-hearted" characterization, where he can't stop himself from trying, even though he knows it's dumb and contrary to what SHOULD be his goals. All of that and more is why he lashes out. And then, after bleating a lot of cruel, vicious stuff, at the WoL for failing, still completely unnecessarily and deliberately sets up a situation where we can still defeat and stop him when all he'd have to do to seal his victory, and his peoples' victory, is Literally Nothing.

Yes, he has tested humanity before. They've constantly failed via being cruel, selfish, and weak. Yoshida has also described Emet-Selch's efforts and intentions as being "pure," or, if you like, "in good faith" in regards to hoping humanity would prove themselves capable of looking after the star, but he's been "betrayed again and again, and so he gave up."

Again, if you truly think that he's "consistent" in Shadowbringers in terms of how his actions and words all serve a single goal, it's basically missing the point of the entire characterization arc. Even beyond Yoshida, Ishikawa herself is on the record for stating that "his kindness was his downfall."

[Brinne]

Self-indulgently cringerambling that I may or may not deeply regret, a bit further:

I know people have struggled with this since 5.0, which has always been a little frustrating to me, because it's exactly why I found Jet-Black Villains incredibly compelling and empathetic. The fundamental truth of the conflict is this: you, the Warrior of Light, have killed a fundamentally kind-hearted, deeply tormented person who was both acting out of love and duty, and who sabotaged his own goals in the hope of finding a way to join hands and work together without violence or having to kill each other anymore. You can have your own opinion about the viability of his methods and approach, but the genuine good faith of his intentions, at least, is textual and beyond contention - and was ultimately key to your victory over him. You killed this person, and crushed the hopes and potential salvation of the people he was desperate to save, in order to save yourself, your own people, and the people that you love.

You weren't necessarily wrong or evil for doing this - truly. It was to protect the people you love and the world that you love, and it seemed to turn out that your differences were, indeed, to both of your regrets, irreconciliable.

"You have done a great and terrible thing."

Coping with the full truth of a situation like this is hard. There will always be a temptation, when people are in what amounts to a conflict over a limited, life-saving resource (literally Existence in this case), to demonize the other side, argue that they were always just simply out to just kill us, were less worthy anyway, were Other, were clearly acting in bad faith, that anything they might have said in hopes of reconciliation or regret that it had to come to violence is a lie we shouldn't trust. This is exactly what Emet-Selch's actual malicious flaw is - he can't cope with the full truth of what he is doing and the humanity of those he is doing it to, so he lies about them to himself and disparages them, and - though it's understandable - this is what leads him to his mental tailspin that culminates in his destruction, with he himself contributing, because he simply could not deal with it.

But what Shadowbringers does, as a whole - implicitly through the MSQ treatment of the Ancients and Emet-Selch, and explicitly in the role quests and such - is urge us to not do that, because doing that is fundamentally cowardly. Don't look away - look at what you're doing straight on, even if you still come to the conclusion you need to do it. Don't pretend the people you're putting down are something other than what they are, that they're Not Like You, in order to comfort yourself and tell yourself "there was no other way and besides, the other side was only malicious and worthless and not worth saving or engaging with anyway." Don't take away the truth of others' personhood and humanity, even if you still have to take their lives, in order to serve yourself. You have done a great and terrible thing.

Man, Shadowbringers was so, so good.

[Tehmon]

Let's be real, humankind would never meet whatever requirements Emet required of them, making all of his tests just means of coping and justification, keeping him on his massmurdering path to bring back his world and his people. WoL being able to hold in all the light was a completely illogical nonsense test as well that Emet probably knew WoL would fail. And even if it hadn't, ultimately there was no reason for the scions and the WoL to ever assist him in anything. Emet said so himself, if they wouldn't become allies, they would be killed (unless I'm remembering wrong). Either way, Emet revealing that after the rejoinings all the people left would be sacrificed nonetheless just proves that there was no alliance to be had with Emet/the ascians. Even Endwalker-Emet says it pretty clearly: '' the future you seek is not the past we loved '', thus making it very clear that it was never about whether the people would prove themselves worthy, but that they wanted the past and it's people back, not a new race of powerful people. At least, that is my interpretation.

Regardless, I can believe that Emet did feel awful about his actions, but ultimately none of his grievances or woes would matter in the long run. His path was chosen no matter how hard he tried to stray... but then one has to wonder about the final fight versus Emet, if it was Emet knowingly being sloppy, careless and needlessly antagonistic because he didn't want continue anymore and needed WoL to bring him down for good. Either way, he had nothing to lose at that point. Either kill WoL for good and continue bringing back your world, or get defeated and finally get put to rest, potentially knowing that the future isn't it god awful hands in the end.

Was it a battle of WoL and Emet, or the battle of the Emets? The Emet who is tired and just wants to quit, and the Emet who wants his people and world back no matter the cost.

[Brinne]

Let's be real, humankind would never meet whatever requirements Emet required of them, making all of his tests just means of coping and justification, keeping him on his massmurdering path to bring back his world and his people. WoL being able to hold in all the light was a completely illogical nonsense test as well that Emet probably knew WoL would fail.

Even if all the textual interviews put forth that, again, he was really trying in good faith to believe in humanity, but was simply betrayed over and over every time he tried, aren't enough for you - this falls apart when, like, the premise of our victory over him IS that humanity met his requirements, and finally passed his tests. Emet-Selch destroyed the white auracite and maintained his selfhood in the Aetherial Sea. He didn't have to accept defeat at the end of The Dying Gasp. He did, because he finally felt like we had passed. The question of "can the WoL contain the light" isn't nonsense when you understand Emet's concern about humanity having both the morality, sense of responsibility, and the base capability to protect the Star. Emet does not know the cause of the Final Days. For all he knows, it could start again at any moment. Even if they had the will, would the Sundered humanity be capable of powering Zodiark or something like him? This is important to him.

Also, Emet is literally contemptuously beating himself up for believing in us after Innocence:

I put my faith in you. Let myself believe that you could contain the light.

This is consistent with nuances that can probably only be noticed in hindsight, like his flash of a sincere smile when the Warrior of Light returns safely from eating a Lightwarden.

And even if it hadn't, ultimately there was no reason for the scions and the WoL to ever assist him in anything.

I would hope, from a "heroic" perspective, that the reason would be: find a nonviolent solution to a tragic conflict that would hopefully save all the people Emet wants to save, that prior to speaking with him we didn't realize were in a Need To Be Saved state, without hurting anyone else. Seems like a pretty good reason to me, if we understand that was Emet's ideal dream outcome as well.

Either way, Emet revealing that after the rejoinings all the people left would be sacrificed nonetheless just proves that there was no alliance to be had with Emet/the ascians.

Yes, after we failed the test, and he didn't see any other recourse (if the WoL didn't manage to put him down in his phantom Amaurot) but to go ahead with the original plan that he'd spent the entire expansion trying to find an alternative for.

Even Endwalker-Emet says it pretty clearly: '' the future you seek is not the past we loved '', thus making it very clear that it was never about whether the people would prove themselves worthy, but that they wanted the past and it's people back, not a new race of powerful people. At least, that is my interpretation.

The context of this quote is him accepting the validity of the future the WoL seeks and that, nonetheless, he himself doesn't belong there or want to be there. This is contingent, inherently, on his acceptance of the outcome - which he states, just prior to this line you quoted. He accepts the outcome, and doesn't intend to challenge it further.

Regardless, I can believe that Emet did feel awful about his actions, but ultimately none of his grievances or woes would matter in the long run. His path was chosen no matter how hard he tried to stray....

I would say they wound up critically mattering, because Emet's wavering and waffling set up almost all of the conditions for his defeat (and therefore the Ascians') in Shadowbringers. None of the actual actions he took within the entire expansion did anything except eventually contribute to his own death. Again, this is the fundamental point of the character and his role in Shadowbringers. You can do what the WoL did: accept the situation for what it is and do what you have to do, but refuse to look away from it as the "great and terrible thing" it is, recognizing the humanity of your opponents and still showing kindness and compassion to them where you are able - or you can do what Emet did, which is Cope Hard, tell yourself their cause was less worthy anyway, they're objectively worse people so it's fine (which leads to a spiral of being capable of more and more cruelties) - or you can go even further than even Emet, the good old "well, clearly, they're so Other that attempting to reason with or see humanity in them to begin with is pointless."

[thegreatonemal]

Your entire argument hinges on this new approach being nonviolent with the rejonings. That is not correct. He does not want to fight us if he does not have to. He wants us to help him with destroying the shards. He clarifies this during his introduction. He had just considered killing us all but then comments that's what Lahabrea did and it got him killed. He phrases it as us surviving the remaining calamities, which no one would say if they were wanting people to live. When we fail his test and thancred asks if we had passed and said no to helping you what then. "Then I simply kill you all." Wouldn't it be something like "Then I'll find somebody who will." He was using us as the standard of all mankind so surly he could have found someone. But that was never his aim if we say yes, then we find a away to use all that light to bring about the rejoining. If we say no, he kills us, all the light is freed and the First is back to what it was before we went around trouncing lightwardens willy-nilly, ripe for the rejoining.

[Brinne]

Your entire argument hinges on this new approach being nonviolent with the rejonings. That is not correct. He does not want to fight us if he does not have to. He wants us to help him with destroying the shards. He clarifies this during his introduction.

Once again:

he really thought that by joining hands with humans, he could have found a different solution to the methods that he and the Ascians had taken up until that point.

Or if you want something directly from the game:

Mayhap there is another way. One which does not require bloodshed…

I understand that's sort of difficult to process that, yes, we killed a person who did indisputably try to reach out to us in good faith, in hopes for some kind of nonviolent reconciliation. But that is what happened. Obviously, as a whole, the situation is more complex - the Scions had extremely good reasons to distrust Emet-Selch given their history, his own obnoxious behavior and difficult personality wasn't exactly optimal towards beginning to win that trust, so I am absolutely not saying the Scions are bad or wrong for being reluctant to meet him at the table - Emet-Selch dug his own grave on several levels on that front. However, the truth remains, again to use Yoshida's own words, that on its own, his intent was, indeed, "pure" and he truly did want to "trust and believe in" the new humanity.

So there's no real reason to try to distort the facts of what happened or the mindset of the person we killed or what he was actually hoping to accomplish. Shadowbringers asks us to accept the situation for what it truly was - tragic, great, and terrible all at once - and in that way, look for ways to honor and uplift the fallen, not disparage them in order to justify ourselves. Emet-Selch still drew a hard line in the sand that we had to "prove ourselves worthy" if the situation remained a question of only one group or the other being allowed to live. That caused us to need to fight him, in the end, to protect ourselves and the world we know. He also was truly, sincerely hoping to find some other way "that did not involve bloodshed" if we were able to "prove ourselves worthy" and were willing to join forces. This can be true at the same time as "we still had to kill him to survive because we didn't meet his conditions and rejected those conditions as justifications for our deaths" is also true.

[EaraGrace]

Oh wow look at how suddenly crowded this thread got!

The wording of "surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me." strongly implies that her expectation was that you would not surpass her.

Yep. We did even better than she hoped for, more than she could've if the roles were swapped. That says nothing about whether she expected us to win or not.

What does say something about that are her statements before and after the fight.

Therein lieth your power. The strength to silence the song of oblivion.

At last… man has the strength to…

In spite of, or perhaps because of this, I choose to believe. In mankind's potential. In his ability to find a forward.

And then theres the longgggg section where she personally thanks us for inspiring her, how our resolve amazed her and gave her the strength to move forward.

Of this, I have no doubt. For yours is a light brilliant beyond measure.

In the same way Emet-Selch hoped that WoL would surpass and defeat him, but didn't actually believe it was possible, Venat thought the same. Hence why she developed the entire evacuation plan to begin with, because she thought it could come to that.

So this is an argumentative sleight of hand. There's a profound difference between it could come to that and it will, a fundamental seperation between believing one succeed and not believing one could but holding onto to a vague hope.

You don't understand value judgements? If someone values loyalty and honestly, or the quality of a life more than just the existence of a life, they probably won't sympathize with Venat. You can believe in moral complexity and still believe that Venat was very wrong, if you consider her actions to be antithetical to your own moral framework.

Completely missed my point. The level of anger direct at Venat far exceeds any other character in 14, and yet her actions are easily compared to other characters that get defended incessantly. Don't like lying or ruining the lives of others? Then never defend an Unsundered. Emet, Elidibus, Lahabrea, all individually slaughter, lie, and destroy untold lives in their quest with little regard for who they crush. Do that and I'll start to believe that there isn't an obvious double standard here.

But as you say, less than a year ago you didn't consider moral complexity valid and viewed the conflict in black and white terms. So when the situation gets turned around, and your position loses it's moral simplicity, and you find yourself arguing "well actually this genocide was justified because it reached an end I agree with", I don't think accusations of double standards are very appropriate.

Completely, totally and utterly off the mark. Let me repeat myself. I view Venat's actions as wholly right, and would, if I were in this universe, do what I can to see her plan to fruition because of that. My black and white thinking hasn't changed, even if I recognize the moral complexity inherent in these discussions. I can actually believe that myself and others are valid for seeing complexity and that there is right and wrong at the same time. Now, if you want to join me in the "its black and white, good vs. evil" then by all means! The water's fine! But I just find really really interesting the shift others have taken. Especially now that the shoes on the other foot.

As I said in November of last year

Its weird to me that many of the same people who will argue in defense of the Ascians also seem to want Venat to have flaws so they can make her out as an irredeemable monster. Seems contradictory to me.

Given you were also in that discussion Veloran I hope its clear the problem we face is not that I've changed my position.