Which part of summoner's rotation am I meant to find satisfying?

[aveyond-dreams]

And you're completely missing the mark by trying to project FFXI SMN here in FFXIV when they have fundamentally different gameplay styles.

Goodness forbid the more popular of Summoner's iteration be used as a basis for FFXIV's version.

I get where you're coming from and exactly the Summoner fantasy you're going for, but as the others mentioned to you - I don't think it's any more likely than a revert. There's also the issue Fulminating pointed out where, unless all those summons were tied to each other in some way, suboptimal ones would be weeded out and never used. Unfortunately, I doubt Square would want to make a rotation with that many flashy summons all being connected to each other in some form, and even if they somehow did - you should still understand the grievances of the people who had their job replaced with something completely different.

My patience for the fans of old Summoner was spent ages ago after they held my favourite job hostage for a decade, while telling me to go play something else. These individuals want dots and dark magic, I suggest that SE make a class for them instead of having deceived them into thinking Summoner was the job for them. I refuse to compromise the job further to suit their whims. We need to move forwards in a meaningful direction, while adding the things people come to Summoner for, instead of continuing to talk in circles.

[fulminating]

I could quite easily take the stance that xi's summoner is nothing more than a perversion of the original from ff3. I'm not going to, but it's no different to what you're saying.

[Axxion]

Goodness forbid the more popular of Summoner's iteration be used as a basis for FFXIV's version.



My patience for the fans of old Summoner was spent ages ago after they held my favourite job hostage for a decade, while telling me to go play something else. These individuals want dots and dark magic, I suggest that SE make a class for them instead of having deceived them into thinking Summoner was the job for them. I refuse to compromise the job further to suit their whims. We need to move forwards in a meaningful direction, while adding the things people come to Summoner for, instead of continuing to talk in circles.

Here is the thing if they decide to take that direction of smn its fine give us a list of smn and add them to gems or do a different combination to have a different demi summon however from what im seeing is that going forward thats nothing really going to change. Hear me out. We had the exact same summons since AAR. Promised of egi glamours etc. People always asked for more summons but never got them.

For me i want summoner to be about the pets and not the player itself. I dont want to channel the power of titan to do the move i want titan to stay out in the field doing the actions that i tell them todo like. ( which i already know that they cant fix the ai for)

to me the dots system was alright but looking through on why they removed "The Job Actions of the Summoner had reached its limits. It was barely possible to add new Job Actions, so we decided to do a massive overhaul with the release of 6.0.. The first concept of this overhaul was to remove all DoTs." for pet focus actions That being said, its get you thinking on what was the other concepts they had for smn.

Source: https://www.siliconera.com/yoshi-p-e...xiv-endwalker/

and join the club about the class change. Ive been told several times that, if you like something keep playing it nothing more nothing less

[Shiroe]

personally Snm lv 50-86 is just horrible.., going back and syncing down old content (old raids & dungeons)..., especially the aoe rota, that was a special trademark if Smn's (which kept getting simplified over the years)
... lv 90 is everyone's cup of teamb(some love it others hate it)

but pre- lv 90 Smn is just unacceptable!!!

[Shiroe]

personally Snm lv 50-86 is just horrible.., going back and syncing down old content (old raids & dungeons)..., especially the aoe rota, that was a special trademark if Smn\\'s (which kept getting simplified over the years)
... lv 90 is everyone\\'s cup of teamb(some love it others hate it)


but pre- lv 90 Smn is just unacceptable!!!

gawd, can't edit posts on mobiles..

the aoe rota is literally non existent on lower level (part of the old Smn's trademark).., going in Bahamut /Phönix is not really a rota.., besides that, if Bahamut is not up during aoe parts, like in dungeons or raids like UWU, your ffed (atleast v 90 has some kind of a aoe rota resemblance)
...

and ofc single target rota pre 90 is also non existent (not that lv 90 is much better, but there you can swap / chose the primal and +/- skill oder for optimization.. while pre 90 the rota is "R3 R3, R3, R3... till next demi-summon os up"
..
at the VERY least, pre 90 should be adressed.. , gawed new players probably give up on Smn in hordes.., likely only oldschool Smn are still playing Smn..

[Equitable_Remedy]

EW SMN is my only caster at lvl 90, and I quite enjoyed it. Were I going to main a caster, I think that it would be SMN.

I know that I'm supposed to be mad about the rework, but the bottom line is that I never touched SMN before EW and enjoy playing it now. Whipping out Bahamuts and Ifrits Titans is fun. Having my attacks change based on the summon is fun. The later astral flow abilities are fun. Being able to rez in a pinch is icing on the cake. The class quest line, while not top tier, has a good vibe.

I'm not saying that anyone else has to like it (and this is the internet, so people generally only come here to complain about things), but SMN went from a class that I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot poll to my favorite caster. Take that as you will.

[Xtrasweettea]

Goodness forbid the more popular of Summoner's iteration be used as a basis for FFXIV's version.

You understand that the "more popular" of Summoner's iteration was shit for most of FFXI's life right?

• Summons drained your MP over time on top of casting them to summon and to use their BPs.
• Their damage was too low versus the TP gain mobs would get even in casual EXP party content. Meaning that mobs were dealing too much damage versus the damage SMNs could do. SMNs were relegated to 1/2 WHMs with giant MP pools.
• Once people figured out the power of Alexander, SMNs were just regulated to Astral Flow Alexander, then either kick for RDM/BRD/COR while doing the event. People would just dual box a SMN who's sole purpose was just Astro Flow Alex. We did that in our endgame Linkshell. MVP Mule right there.
• On top of that, once people found out that you can freeze your Astro Flow buff timer by being locked in a text box that required a decision (yes, no) they would just try to milk out as many Alexanders as possible on one Astro Flow buff (this was nerfed during the tail end of Voidwatch).

The SMN you are enjoying now is not close to the SMN we had do deal with during the peak of FFXI to the downward slope through CoA.

Yes, it had plenty of summons. Which we're easier to get as a RDM than as the job that actually uses them.

FFXI SMNs were not that great at all during the life of the game. They are better now, but you are also playing a game at the end of it's life EoL for short). You cannot compare EoL FFXI SMN to Current Life FF14 SMN. You have to compare like for like.

Which means that even though traditional FF14 SMN was not a "true SMN", it was still more viable and playable as its own class versus FFXI SMN during the Living portion of FFXI.

[aveyond-dreams]

That's too bad, anyway, those of us who were playing FFXI around the time FFXIV launched looked at FFXIV Summoner and laughed and cried at how shockingly bad it was. It missed the mark. I am not old enough to claim to have played FFXI at its all-time peak but I played it when they finally figured out what to do with their classes. I am absolutely going to compare the two, because one of them got the fantasy and general gameplay right and the other still hasn't delivered on both after 8 years.

I was able to - in the current version of FFXI - go out and get most of my summons by level 20 and then used them at level 70 to get a few more, and I'm still working on getting Siren. The job that I played was on point in terms of fantasy and the general way in which it played. That isn't asking too much, but it apparently it was when the warlocks had the run of the place and twisted Summoner into the mess it became in Shadowbringers. Anyone could tell that it was going nowhere, glad to see the people in charge of it finally realized that after spending a decade running in the wrong direction.

"Still more viable and playable as its own class" I'm sorry but out of all the classes that were good at soloing pre-Trusts in FFXI, Summoner was still my go to over Red Mage. Red Mage is still good for soloing granted, but certainly not better or more fun than the levels I spent wandering the world with Shiva at my side.

The people who still feel wronged over the deception need to get over it and the conversation needs to be brought back into the hands of people who actually want to be Summoners, whether they want it pet-centric/gems/demis/whatever - we need the people who still pine over old Summoner to move on. That kind of gameplay is not coming back to this job, there are no male Viera numbers of them mad enough to cause a reversion. The less their ideas are entertained, the better off new Summoner will be. Hopefully they get their Necromancer or Time Mage someday, but until then I have little regard for their takes.

[Rolder50]

My Summary:

New Summoner: Theme Good, Gameplay Bad, improve gameplay please and thank you.

[aveyond-dreams]

My Summary:

New Summoner: Theme Good, Gameplay Bad, improve gameplay please and thank you.

Basically this. As long as we can agree on this principle, I have no issue. The job needs work. More time in the oven. A decent base (for an ARR job) but not enough to satisfy a level 90 player and certainly nowhere close to satisfying the appetite of someone like me who went out and collected almost all of FFXI's pantheon.

I've been patient with this rework as long as I can but now with some of these other job changes a lot of my confidence in these designers has been lost. Removing Kaiten from Samurai was the biggest display of a fundamental misunderstanding of any job that isn't Black Mage or Warrior, which are always fun it seems. The last thing anyone needs is to fill their heads with ideas that go against what they just put out after it took them 8 years to build a framework for Summoner. The only crowning achievement here is that it's easier on the hands, but the same can be said of any other job that wasn't Shb SMN.

We need to get it back on focus and not sit around looking back at the Bio and Miasma days. Anyone who still misses it: time to design Necromancer or Time Mage concepts. If I feel so inclined I will literally stitch together the icons and ability descriptions of them for them. I should probably use that time refining and figuring out more concrete ideas for this Summoner, but anything to get them to move on already.

Here is a more productive prompt for discussion rather than continuing this neverending spiral: how about people give their ideas for how the following summons could be integrated into new Summoner's kit, and do not feel constrained in following the gem/demi paradigm:

- Alexander
- Odin
- Anima

As level 90 and eventual level 100 summoners, it is unthinkable to me that these aren't part of our kit by now. Let's hear some ideas.