Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[Lyth]

It's really hard to formulate a judgement around Zodiark when we haven't been definitively told about what the risk/benefit trade-off was, as well as how the decision to summon him was actually reached. I suspect that there's no perfect answer to the problem, even if we had all the facts at our disposal. Otherwise there wouldn't have even been a debate around it.

[Alleo]

I don't mind people having differing opinions, but I find that those who are pro-Venat/Sundering are rather prone to misinterpreting information (Not so much here, but in broader social groups).

IE, I've lost track of how many have claimed Zodiark had to go because he was some kind of blood god that demanded constant sacrifices to continue existing when it's stated multiple times the Convocation intended to stop after the third had restored things to some semblance of normalcy with the souls within freed from their state of limbo and also made clear that him and Hydaelyn were not flawed like modern day primals and could subsist entirely on the sacrifices that summoned them.

The question is though, are they misinterpreting information that are 100% facts ingame or do they simply disagree with something that leaves room for interpretation? A lot about Venat, her actions, about Hydaelyn and Zodiark are still shrouded in mystery. We dont have a clear answer for all of them.

For example we have no idea if Zodiark would not have turned out to be a blood god. He never got that far. Yes the elder primals dont need to constantly "eat" aether to exist but we dont know how far their aether can go. Hydealyn had her limits. What if the Ancients found out that the exchanged souls are not enough? What if those beings would be gone much sooner than any Ancient? What if those unwilling souls suddenly change the whole deal with Zodiark? (How would he behave if he is full of souls that are hating the Ancients? How would that affect their society where a part of the people are tempered by him?) What if Meteion gets much stronger after a long long time?

There is a chance that it would have been done after the third sacrifice. But we dont know. A lot information around these elder primals are not facts. They are still up to speculation because we have no full information on them.

There are more topics like that. The whole third sacrifice for example. (What did they want to use in the past?) Or how much Venat tried to change the future after we left. We dont know.

So tell me where does speculation and hypothesis end and headcannon begins? Also I know both sides have accused each other of leaning into headcannon, but how does it come off as those who don't agree with what Venat did only gets to have their speculation and hypothesis taken as that and the other side is the one wading in the headcannon pool?

Its always that way. Its bad that someone says something mean about someone liking the Ascians/Garlemald (and I agree that discussions should be done without personal insults...), yet its perfectly fine to call the other side sheeps, tempered or mommy lovers.

Its bad to say that someone did not like the story because they did not understand it or skipped cutscenes but its perfectly fine to say that those who enjoyed it simply like easy stories or are white knights..

You are always tone policing if you say anything about way too aggressive posts but as soon as someone from "the other side" does it, its fine to tone police them.

Seemingly there are many horrible people/opinions outside of this forum yet we still get hit with all the heath here. (And some nice signature pictures that are of course totally not here to continue being passive aggressive) Its tiresome and its not surprising that a few of the veteran posters are bascially silent. I myself feel like I dont want to post something here. Maybe it will get better with time and new storylines but I doubt it.

[KageTokage]

The question is though, are they misinterpreting information that are 100% facts ingame or do they simply disagree with something that leaves room for interpretation? A lot about Venat, her actions, about Hydaelyn and Zodiark are still shrouded in mystery. We dont have a clear answer for all of them.

It's that and they state things that were left open-ended as facts.

IE, another common example is people parroting that the Plenty represents the fate the Ancients would have met, not that it was just a possibility like was originally stated by Ishikawa.

I am looking forward to when that star's story is hopefully explained better once Stigma 4 gets around to recreating its people at the cafe because the circumstances that led to their end seem the most vague out of the three in the Dead Ends, given the unknown purpose of the World Tree as well the barren broken husk of their star below.

[Renathras]

No. No, I should not and WILL NOT take this back. You're out of line.

I'm out of line when you just called the bulk of FFXIV players history deniers on a whim?

Aaaaaaaand, now we have officially devolved into literally justifying the genocide of cultures we don't agree with the moral values of. How have you not been banned yet?

Maybe because I have not officially devolved into literally justifying the genocide of cultures I don't agree with the moral values of? I did, however, note that many people ARE in favor of that (see again: Nazis and Nazi culture/ideology), and that most people on Earth today are, in fact, in favor of that. Maybe I haven't been banned because I've broken no forum rules and am not even arguing what you think I'm arguing? I even outright pointed out how it isn't genocide to begin with.

I quite literally don't know what to say to or about you, besides yelling at you and calling you labels that frankly aren't permitted here. You need to do some rather strenuous introspection, if you believe half the things you spout this is an issue.

I can't even tell what you have issue with because all you do is insult me, not refer to anything I've specifically said, seem to have made up things that I didn't say, and then chose to attack me and question my moral and personal character.

You are out of line.

EDIT:

So tell me where does speculation and hypothesis end and headcannon begins? Also I know both sides have accused each other of leaning into headcannon, but how does it come off as those who don't agree with what Venat did only gets to have their speculation and hypothesis taken as that and the other side is the one wading in the headcannon pool? I guess the story and this quest line did its job then if people aren't able to agree on if what one or more people did was justifiable or not depending on their perspective. I chose all three were in their own right as from certain points of view one could see how each of them ended up at their decisions. I also thought about choosing none of them since they were all horrible decisions. All three lead to some form of genocide and suffering. What the problem is at least to me is how at least one side is incapable of understanding how the other is able to reach conclusions based on evidence that the story has given as having a high chance of possibility of those conclusions being probable. That are then labeled as headcannon.

Its always that way. Its bad that someone says something mean about someone liking the Ascians/Garlemald (and I agree that discussions should be done without personal insults...), yet its perfectly fine to call the other side sheeps, tempered or mommy lovers.

Its bad to say that someone did not like the story because they did not understand it or skipped cutscenes but its perfectly fine to say that those who enjoyed it simply like easy stories or are white knights..

You are always tone policing if you say anything about way too aggressive posts but as soon as someone from "the other side" does it, its fine to tone police them.

Seemingly there are many horrible people/opinions outside of this forum yet we still get hit with all the heath here. (And some nice signature pictures that are of course totally not here to continue being passive aggressive) Its tiresome and its not surprising that a few of the veteran posters are bascially silent. I myself feel like I dont want to post something here. Maybe it will get better with time and new storylines but I doubt it.

Basically, yeah.

If you argue - using in game sources, reason, logic, and respectful argument - the pro-Venat position, you are called horrible names (I've now been accused of being pro-genocide...that's a new one!), regarded as a "simp" (explaining a position is not being a wannabe booty call), and your FACT BASED POSITIONS are derided as "headcanon". Meanwhile, if you're on the anti-Venat side, you can do no wrong, you're right about everything, even - or especially - the parts you made up as wholesale head canon, you can freely ignore in-game lore as "They didn't know what they were talking about" or "Nuh-uh!", freely ignore the writers' direct words on the topics, and ANY insult against you is beyond the pale, as is calling you out for any fallacies or insults you are employing yourself.

And the messed up thing is, almost NO ONE on the pro-Venat side is saying "Venat did nothing wrong", unlike the pro-Zodiark side that often DOES hold cases like "Emet did nothing wrong". Most on the pro-Venat side say she was faced with nothing but bad options and did the best she could, which is what both the story and the writers of it have said.

It's weird being called pro-genocide with questions about morals and how one hasn't been banned for simply expressing what the game itself largely does, and making no strong pro or con argument.

Hell, I heven't once defended what Venat did as the best option, or even a GREAT option, or even a GOOD option. But, apparently, this somehow makes me pro-cultural genocide of the Native Americans or...something. I don't even know how some of you guys' brains work, but that's a bit out there...

.

I do get some people like anti-heroes/anti-villains and moral gray/ambiguity. Some people hate "true good" characters/gods in stories. Some people hate Superman, not because he has no real challenge, but because he's not edgy, doesn't have a mean bone in his body, and in most lore is a genuinely good person with no great moral failings who also has the power to back up his goodie-two-shoes personality.

And some people absolutely hate that kind of thing, preferring worlds where there is no true good or evil, and everyone is some shade of gray.

Note the word some, not all or most or a majority, btw.

So I get how the idea of Venat NOT being a bad person is hard to take from people that had all but assumed their headcanon they came up with during ShB was that Venat was going to turn out to secretly be the Big Bad this whole time...and when the story said "No, she actually is/was a genuinely good person, just faced with horrible options", refused to accept that.

But that's no reason to abandon all civility in a discussion where people are free to argue both sides.

[anhaato]

*Calls people Nazis over a viddy game* *Is shocked when they bite back* It's the least you deserve, bro.

[Renathras]

*Calls people Nazis over a viddy game* *Is shocked when they bite back* It's the least you deserve, bro.

Who did I call a Nazi?

Be specific.

EDIT: I know you hate me, you've been MORE than clear about that, but seriously, you just made that one up entirely. I want a direct quote from you on that. If you can't provide one, you need to take a step back and ask yourself why your hate has so filled you you're willing to make up things about me 100% from your imagination just to hate me for things you imagined I did that I never did.

And the fact you got 2 likes on that post makes me wonder what the people that agree with you are thinking (or aren't), or if you're using alts or some other weirdness. But hey, if OUTRIGHT LIES get likes here...

Here, LET ME HELP YOU. Here is everything I said with the word Nazi in it:

So even if we ignore (1) above, this is kind of like supposing the Nazis planed to nuke the entire planet, and every last German citizen was in agreement on it, but the US/UK nuked them first instead.

If you thought your society was about to follow in the footsteps of the Nazis, would destroying your technology and plunging your nation and people back to the stone age seem the lesser evil? It's a hard question to truly answer...

By that as it may, we again come to the case of dealing with a people that are basically becoming Nazis here. WWII defeated the Nazi power in Germany, and since then, it has been decried and ridiculed. To this day, Nazi-aligned ideologies and parties are attacked and in many places outright banned. Indeed, the very whiff of fascism - real OR imagined - drives most people into a tizzy.

Was it wrong to eradicate it?

By your definition, the Nazis as a culture were destroyed via a genocide, one still perpetuated today. You can try to parse it out to say it isn't, but it arguably meets the concept of a culture/type of culture, and one which has been more or less destroyed (what of it survives is not for wont of trying to eradicate it). Is this cultural/ideological genocide a bad one, or a good one?

I did, however, note that many people ARE in favor of that (see again: Nazis and Nazi culture/ideology), and that most people on Earth today are, in fact, in favor of that.

I believe that's every instance where I mentioned "Nazis", and I've bolded them for you. And I even did so for "fascism".

Where, exactly, did I call anyone arguing/debating here a Nazi?

I DID say, as a "what-if"/"think about it this way" that the ANCIENTS were basically becoming Nazis. But unless you are one of the Ancients, that doesn't apply to you, now does it?

[Theodric]

At times like this, I'm particularly pleased to be into other men. I can't imagine getting this heated over a rather bland mother goddess figure or feeling compelled to defend her to such a degree!

[anhaato]

Who did I call a Nazi?

Be specific.

EDIT: I know you hate me, you've been MORE than clear about that, but seriously, you just made that one up entirely. I want a direct quote from you on that. If you can't provide one, you need to take a step back and ask yourself why your hate has so filled you you're willing to make up things about me 100% from your imagination just to hate me for things you imagined I did that I never did.

And the fact you got 2 likes on that post makes me wonder what the people that agree with you are thinking (or aren't), or if you're using alts or some other weirdness. But hey, if OUTRIGHT LIES get likes here...

By that as it may, we again come to the case of dealing with a people that are basically becoming Nazis here.

???????????????????????

[Renathras]

???????????????????????

THE ANCIENTS YOU POTATO!

Also, you have two alts you're liking your own posts with? I notice when you post, your posts instantly have 2 likes on them. VERY interesting...

EDIT: Seriously, look at that quote:

"dealing with a people"

_A_ people. _A_ civilization. Not people on an internet forum.

Good god, man! Again, I know you hate me, but you're literally just MAKING UP things to hate me over because you WANT to hate me for daring to disagree with you. I even just provided the full context of that sentence - I note you left out the rest - which makes it clear I was talking about a CULTURE, and one which most Humans on Earth today FAVOR the eradication of, which is how you know I was talking about the Ancient's as a CULTURE, too.

Why would I talk about cultural genocide in relation to insulting individual people (individuals are not cultures, nor committing cultural genocide) as Nazis?

No part of that thought process even makes sense!

[anhaato]

Ok then I was mistaken. Sure. Sorry. But you're still intentionally provoking fights, I don't know why you're surprised that people are getting your ass. Also, have you considered that I'm not the only one that doesn't like you?