Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[Veloran]

First let’s recognize that what’s described as random is not peoples reactions, but instead the environmental factors that ultimately inform their reactions to despair. This is a subtle distinction, but one that’s extremely important. One of these is impossible to control or push in a certain direction. The other is possible to manipulate, but only in a limited way.

Debatable.

No...pattern? You imply that the transformation was not contingent on individual fortitude, but rather a random contribution of environmental factors?

I don't agree with your supposition of what this is talking about. It seems to me the premise of this statement is the transformation, not people's individual fortitude. So when he says "but rather", the full thought would be, "The transformation is contingent on a random contribution of environmental factors?"

If we set aside the idea that this is referring to environmental factors like, say, the amount of Dynamis that just happened to get dumped on them, then we're talking about this in the context of a person's psyche. And if we look at it from that angle, then it is truly a random factor. No person has exactly the same perspective and reaction from one day to the next, or even one hour to the next. Something someone can shrug off or not even notice in one second might be intensely annoying or aggravating in the next second. In this sense, their survival was really only dictated by whatever random state their perception happened to be rolling at the specific time the Final Days arrived.

[AwesomeJr44]

Can't even read a screen name correctly.

Oh no, we read it perfectly Mr Oats.

[EaraGrace]

Once again, yes, you are agreeing that this is your logic - that "if a single individual seems, to my estimation, okay within a terrible environment, even if the majority of others around them are in explicit anguish, then everyone should be okay with it and any anguish expressed can be disregarded." In which case, we've hit another one of those impasses where I can't do anything but shrug and go, sure - I personally believe that logic is deeply fallacious, deeply callous, and overlaps with the excuses one often hears to dismiss all manner of poor conditions and mistreatment ("I was beaten as a child, and I turned out fine!"), but all right. I can't convince anyone to care about the demonstrable pain of others when they're looking for any excuse to pretend it isn't valid.

You are once again extrapolating more than you should. My point is that we lack a definitive statement on what it is like to be one with Zodiark. If you disagree then please post that statement. Otherwise, lets recognize that both of us are reaching conclusions from contextual clues. I see Hyth being ok and the statements from the souls discussing how they intended Zodiark to be forever the star's will, and I'm concluding that this is not a "fate worse than death."

Perhaps the best argument I could make for this is the fact that death was an alternative, they after all could've chosen to die and be burned away like those who summoned Hydaelyn did. Why didn't they, if being with Zodiark is a fate "worse than death?"

You... you yourself pointed out Dynamis snuffs out aether. It was explicitly stated in the text that the world was dead, necessitating the use of Ancient souls for the massive amount of aether needed to fuel Zodiark. This sacrifice has never been painted by anything in the story besides noble and laudable. To use your words, you are denying the premise of the text here, and I'm not sure for what - to suggest the Ancients were not acting out of necessity and desperation when they used themselves as sacrifices, but, like, laziness? Is that your ultimate hypothesis here?

Ok, I'm going to walk this through as simply as possible.

Lets operate under the assumption that, as you suggest, there is nothing inherently superior in Ancient souls that make them the best option to empower Zodiark.

1. The Ancients need aether to summon Zodiark
2. Ancient souls are not special and could be replaced with other sources of aether
3. Ancients are able to reduce objects and creatures into base aether
4. There exist multiple facilities, creations, etc. that survived the Final Days that could be reduced to base aether

This leads to a simple conclusion. You don't have to sacrifice humans. You can use other sources.

Uh, I was never trying to prove anything existed. That was in reply to your question of "so why didn't Elidibus do this?" and I answered with "we have no specific or concrete details on exactly what he did."

And you're response was "maybe he did." My point is rooted in the fact that there is a clear solution to the dilemma that divided the Ancients, yet despite acting rationally they did not take that option. Why? This is only a problem if you believe there's nothing special or unique about the souls of sentient beings.

Because you're mistaking the "stealing" in the metaphor as being the stand-in for "sacrifice" in general, when it is not. The stand-in is, again, the ideological factor of "looking back" and "not embracing suffering." The first two sacrifices didn't hit Venat as indicating guilt of those emotional crimes. The third did.

Not true. As the Watcher stated Venat opposed Zodiarks initial sundering, yet did not sunder him immediately.

[AwesomeJr44]

Not true. As the Watcher stated Venat opposed Zodiarks initial sundering, yet did not sunder him immediately.

The watcher's kinda biased here though... he's a little bit of a... not sure if I can say the word here, but it's a four letter word that starts with S and ends with P, and in the middle is his tier 3 sub to Venat.

[Theodric]

Can't even read a screen name correctly

I think there's a fairly common expression involving stones and glass houses? At any rate, it's 'Gridania' as opposed to 'Gridinia' if I remember correctly!

[EaraGrace]

The watcher's kinda biased here though... he's a little bit of a... not sure if I can say the word here, but it's a four letter word that starts with S and ends with P, and in the middle is his tier 3 sub to Venat.

Damn that some good faith right there.

[AwesomeJr44]

Damn that some good faith right there.

I'm more focused on the Loss and Fire of the expansion lol
Faith is for people who eat Oatmeal. (Watcher eats oatmeal confirmed?)

[thegreatonemal]

Oh no, we read it perfectly Mr Oats.

the.great.one.mal
No, I don't think so, you added some letters and moved some around to get your little joke.
So we agree that you and the other person can't read very well right. Explains a lot. Might wanna work on that before participating in an online forum. Unless these forums has a voice chat option I'm not aware of.

[Brinne]

You are once again extrapolating more than you should. My point is that we lack a definitive statement on what it is like to be one with Zodiark. If you disagree then please post that statement. Otherwise, lets recognize that both of us are reaching conclusions from contextual clues. I see Hyth being ok and the statements from the souls discussing how they intended Zodiark to be forever the star's will, and I'm concluding that this is not a "fate worse than death."

Perhaps the best argument I could make for this is the fact that death was an alternative, they after all could've chosen to die and be burned away like those who summoned Hydaelyn did. Why didn't they, if being with Zodiark is a fate "worse than death?"

If you're waiting on a "definitive statement" on what it's like from an individual human perspective in response to an environmental condition, then, conveniently, you'll be waiting forever and can draw upon the "who can saaaaay" angle for eternity. Drawing on some personal experience so I can speak more confidently on it, if you'll forgive me - without a constant supply of insulin, I would die a painful death. But one of the first things you learn in managing this condition is that there is no definitive or universal experience you can absolutely cite or draw upon. It is different for every single person who has it. In other words, you all now get to enjoy type one diabetes and have to manage the constant fatigue and giving yourself multiple daily injections or die, along with the associated financial burden, but don't worry, you should all be totally okay with it, because some people manage fine!

"Some people manage fine" and there not being a "statement of definitive experience" does not mean that does not mean we cannot confidently say that, as a whole, it is a shit condition to live with, that we should not expect people to have to live with it if there's any alternative, and if there some kind of cure ever exists in the future, it is absolutely positively the moral choice to apply it to those who need it.

Also, we're talking about different things in your second statement. "Death" to the Ancients is "returning to the Star and entering the cycle of reincarnation." I never suggested being trapped in Zodiark is worse than what happened to the Hydaelyn followers. Both of those outcomes, from an Ancient perspective, construes a fate worse than death. Would you like me to agree that the fate of what happened to the souls fueling Hydaelyn was worse than Zodiark? I can certainly agree to that! It's quite messed up, and I feel extremely bad for the ones sacrificed to Hydaelyn!

This leads to a simple conclusion. You don't have to sacrifice humans. You can use other sources.

Uh, yes. It's canon that you can use other sources. That's the entire basis of the Ancients' plan to get their loved ones back. That is not the same as saying that at the time Zodiark needed to be summoned the alternative resources were available in the quality or quantities needed - once again, it is stated those resources needed to be "nurtured" until the planet was "bursting with vitality." Zodiark is a Primal of darkness, of moving, active dynamic energy - so, likely, yes, dark-aspected aether - living energies - as Hythlodaeus's shade put forth.

It's also impressed upon us the massive amounts of aether contained within an Ancient's body and soul. Hydaelyn powered herself on the souls of very few individuals to Sunder the entire world, stay operable for the next twelve thousand years, and continue to empower Warriors of Light and intervene on their behalves to make sure things were proceeding smoothly. It's a bit hard to take the suggestion of "why didn't they just use some ruined buildings instead lol" in good faith, I'm sorry.

And you're response was "maybe he did." My point is rooted in the fact that there is a clear solution to the dilemma that divided the Ancients, yet despite acting rationally they did not take that option. Why? This is only a problem if you believe there's nothing special or unique about the souls of sentient beings.

My response was not "maybe he did." My response was "we do not know," or to put it another way, "you can't reasonably cite something as evidence for your argument that has never been concretely established in any way, shape, or form." We have no context as to the debates that took place among the Ancients, only that they happened. Perhaps some people felt that the urgency of getting their loved ones out meant taking the fastest route possible, versus a slower, more humane approach; perhaps people were still so stressed out and traumatized not all options that seemed "obvious" were apparent to them. We have no idea. I'd love to have a better understanding of it, don't get me wrong!

Not true. As the Watcher stated Venat opposed Zodiarks initial sundering, yet did not sunder him immediately.

Hydaelyn was explicitly relying on Zodiark to protect the planet to make her plan work, and the Watcher clarified that "opposing Zodiark" never meant wanting him gone.

[thegreatonemal]

I think there's a fairly common expression involving stones and glass houses? At any rate, it's 'Gridania' as opposed to 'Gridinia' if I remember correctly!

Wow, you zoomed and enhanced and still got it wrong. Do you need glasses? Up the brightness on your monitor?