Incoming Frontline pvp adjustment - What changes do you think necessary?

[JisKing98]

Revert pvp to pre-6.1, because it was more balanced and didn't need these kind of rubberband to work. (and had room for new fun skills like the Drg LB)

Naw keep it. Im actually having more fun with this new pvp then old pvp. CC is perhaps the best direction they can go in. Quick 5-10 minute matches AND I get cool loot that I don't need to slave away in rank for? sign me up. Plus the new pvp moves are so much cooler then what pve got.

[Deveryn]

Revert pvp to pre-6.1, because it was more balanced and didn't need these kind of rubberband to work. (and had room for new fun skills like the Drg LB)

Be honest: It was more fun because you played a tank class and dragged / kicked people off ledges.

Old PvP was bloated with too many skills. It's perfect as it is now for fast-paced action.

[JanVanding]

The biggest problem is actually none of these, but the general apathy and ignorance that tends to exist. People don't know / care about how to actually play through the modes and strategize properly. They're there for the XP.

I've been in groups with a handful of these so-called OP classes and we still lose.

I regularly play scholar and there are times I can get some good battle high going as people just don't seem to have their heal button handy, but I'll also have a target on my back from all the fear mongering

The Bahamut/Laser Deathball laughs at your "it's a skill issue"

Sure, you keep telling yourself that a 40-50 seconds CD (if BRD LBs) in a 10 minute match where major objectives are typically contested at choke points where those LBs thrive is a "skill issue"

So lets say you hold back to avoid the layered LBs, then what? They just got a ton of free time uncontested on the objective, for certain maps that's enough to lock you out of the objective.

That's the problem we are referring to.

Zerg WHM/SMN deathball has a higher success rate if they play for objectives, because they have undisputed control over that objective and the only way to counter it is to use your own deathball and hit them first.

That's not skill, that's brain dead.

[Veranolth]

Only fix to SMN that comes to mind would be for their LB bar to recharge a bit slower.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Revert pvp to pre-6.1, because it was more balanced and didn't need these kind of rubberband to work. (and had room for new fun skills like the Drg LB)

A couple of pre 6.1 pvp whiner in my FC often complains how old healer holds too much power over a match. Good healer carries while bad healers griefs their team.

Now they get what they want: recuperate and purify for themselves—for every job. They should be happy right??

Nah.

[AnotherPerson]

The Bahamut/Laser Deathball laughs at your "it's a skill issue"

Sure, you keep telling yourself that a 40-50 seconds CD (if BRD LBs) in a 10 minute match where major objectives are typically contested at choke points where those LBs thrive is a "skill issue"

So lets say you hold back to avoid the layered LBs, then what? They just got a ton of free time uncontested on the objective, for certain maps that's enough to lock you out of the objective.

That's the problem we are referring to.

Zerg WHM/SMN deathball has a higher success rate if they play for objectives, because they have undisputed control over that objective and the only way to counter it is to use your own deathball and hit them first.

That's not skill, that's brain dead.

Skill issue. You were just avoiding the LBs instead of figuring out a way to strike back and zone the enemy.

Lots of ways to counter stacked LB
- multiple mitigations before engaging.
- Use SCH LB + Deployed Shields
- Use SCH's Biolysis Spread to get 10% damage reduction
- Use PLD LB
- Use SGE LB
- Use AST's LB
- Use RDM's Magick Barrier

- prevent them from being activated in succession by diving them and CCing them first
- Assassinate them (Ninja / MNK / MCH)
- Use WHM LB
- Use WAR's Primal Rend AoE Stun
- Use BLM's CC
- Use BRD's Silence
- Use RDM's Silence
- Use DNC's LB. Good timing is imperative, but you can definitely CC them before they can Bahamut if they are focused on trying to get Bahamut out.


- guard before re-engaging (positioning finesse and timing)

Just because it's simple to use a skill, doesn't mean there aren't ways to reduce the effect and capitalize on the fight. And like you said, if you know fights are going to be where there will be SMNs readying their Bahamuts, you can plan around it. Certain maps may be more difficult, but it's not impossible. It's only impossible when the enemy team can coordinate and your team can't coordinate to give a decent response.

[JanVanding]

Skill issue. You were just avoiding the LBs instead of figuring out a way to strike back and zone the enemy.

Lots of ways to counter stacked LB
- multiple mitigations before engaging.
- Use SCH LB + Deployed Shields
- Use SCH's Biolysis Spread to get 10% damage reduction
- Use PLD LB
- Use SGE LB
- Use AST's LB
- Use RDM's Magick Barrier

- prevent them from being activated in succession by diving them and CCing them first
- Assassinate them (Ninja / MNK / MCH)
- Use WHM LB
- Use WAR's Primal Rend AoE Stun
- Use BLM's CC
- Use BRD's Silence
- Use RDM's Silence
- Use DNC's LB. Good timing is imperative, but you can definitely CC them before they can Bahamut if they are focused on trying to get Bahamut out.


- guard before re-engaging (positioning finesse and timing)

Just because it's simple to use a skill, doesn't mean there aren't ways to reduce the effect and capitalize on the fight. And like you said, if you know fights are going to be where there will be SMNs readying their Bahamuts, you can plan around it. Certain maps may be more difficult, but it's not impossible. It's only impossible when the enemy team can coordinate and your team can't coordinate to give a decent response.

Did you not see the issue there?

You listed a precise and coordinated set up to counter a braindead strategy that anyone can pull off with very little coordination and precision.

You're expecting 24 randoms to coordinate perfectly against deathball that just slaps shiny button.

[AnotherPerson]

Did you not see the issue there?

You listed a precise and coordinated set up to counter a braindead strategy that anyone can pull off with very little coordination and precision.

You're expecting 24 randoms to coordinate perfectly against deathball that just slaps shiny button.

??? What precise coordination?

I just listed a bunch of ways you can counter it. Some are more tedious than others because it requires an opportunity and opening. Silencing / stunning / CCing ONE target to stop an LB or stagger them does not require ridiculous amount of coordination. Nor does it require a lot of coordination to tell your SGE to put up a LB to counter the incoming LBs. It just requires map awareness.

A SCH alone should NOT be able to handle 5+ LBs but can definitely do a lot of mitigation when played well.
So can an AST. 30% reduction with Macrocosmos is no joke.

A SCH + AST should be able to handle LBs as long as the team recuperates properly.

A mix of the above will have the same effect to stop or weaken the coordinated LB and either break its coordination or weaken it considerably to the point it's not a "deathball" as you described it to be.
A full set of above? Overkill. A complete waste of resources.

[JanVanding]

??? What precise coordination?

I just listed a bunch of ways you can counter it. Some are more tedious than others because it requires an opportunity and opening. Silencing / stunning / CCing ONE target to stop an LB or stagger them does not require ridiculous amount of coordination. Nor does it require a lot of coordination to tell your SGE to put up a LB to counter the incoming LBs. It just requires map awareness.

A SCH alone should NOT be able to handle 5+ LBs.

A SCH + AST should be able to handle LBs as long as the team recuperates properly.
A mix of the above will have the same effect to stop or weaken the coordinated LB and either break its coordination or weaken it considerably to the point it's not a "deathball" as you described it to be.
A full set of above? Overkill. A complete waste of resources.

It's far easier for the Deathball to execute their strategy than it is to counter it.

"Silence them"

You are in range of the WHM Stun now, the silence you threw won't have caught every WHM/SMN or they were not entirely dumb and purified immediately as they saw it coming.

"Guard"

2 frame wind up, the WHM LB stun is instant, tick rate in large scale will mess you up.

SCH LB

You're now an imp, goodbye shield effect.

The only true way to counter is

1. Run your own deathball
2. Pressure out their LBs in bad spots so they won't have them for objectives
3. Coordinate several LBs/CCs/etc

The issue is risk vs reward

SMN/WHM Deathball is low risk, high reward, thet will always have an easier time doing what they want to do versus a balanced team that will have to coordinate and likely use high risk plays to beat them.

To say "It's a skill issue" to me says "I don't understand balance"

Reason I didn't say BLM is because everyone knows they're just straight busted RN and having to use OP to counter OP just lends itself to how imbalanced Frontline is right now.

[AnotherPerson]

It's far easier for the Deathball to execute their strategy than it is to counter it.

"Silence them"

You are in range of the WHM Stun now, the silence you threw won't have caught every WHM/SMN or they were not entirely dumb and purified immediately as they saw it coming.

"Guard"

2 frame wind up, the WHM LB stun is instant, tick rate in large scale will mess you up.

SCH LB

You're now an imp, goodbye shield effect.

The only true way to counter is

1. Run your own deathball
2. Pressure out their LBs in bad spots so they won't have them for objectives
3. Coordinate several LBs/CCs/etc

The issue is risk vs reward

SMN/WHM Deathball is low risk, high reward, thet will always have an easier time doing what they want to do versus a balanced team that will have to coordinate and likely use high risk plays to beat them.

To say "It's a skill issue" to me says "I don't understand balance"

Reason I didn't say BLM is because everyone knows they're just straight busted RN and having to use OP to counter OP just lends itself to how imbalanced Frontline is right now.

BLM is overpowered right now, but even before 6.11a BLM has very powerful CC control. This is what made them so threatening. They are the job that create openings. They're just more overtuned now, but it's not as if you couldn't do that before. You just have to be a lot better to reach the skill ceiling of that job (which is good job design). Otherwise, Yoshi P wouldn't have been able to make it to Crystal tier if all Black mage had was damage.

I don't what to tell you if you don't think ahead about what to do after you walk in range of the enemy other than skill issue to be honest... I'm more confused why you're walking straight up to hit the enemy where the enemy WHM has direct vision of you and only you alone. I'm also confused why you are guarding after the enemy use their skill. Everyone who uses guard well knows you're supposed to proactively use it by anticipating attacks ahead of time. Using it later and getting CC'd after you got hit means you used Guard in a non-optimal timing, which lowers its effectiveness. This is where the finesse that separates good players and bad players for guarding. Heck, if the WHM hits you with the stun, even better. They just wasted their LB on one target, thereby making an opening for the rest of the alliance - assuming your party realizes this and can capitalize on it (again, skill issue).

And yes, Guard does block imp effect. I always intentionally bait the imp effect when I know they have a WHM when it's ideal for me. If you guarded as you got imped, you guarded way too late. Though as a SCH, you shouldn't even be walking that far up to get hit by WHM's Imp attack if you're targeting properly and staying farther away from the front to reinforce shields. Biolysis + Deployment Tactics has a huge range. Sounds like skill issue to me.

Just guard or purify if you know what to expect and then run back as your allies cover for you and go ahead. Think about what you're doing to get the best results. Sacrifice yourself if you have to just to create an opening if you think it's worth it. Deaths don't matter if your entire team wins out of it. Creating an opening means your team can also burst a player down if they are going to be caught off guard. This is the dynamic of PvP. Literally a skill issue (for your team or theirs) if they cannot react to the gameplay changes. If you want to just play PvP by using LBs, then there's no point in having different skills that can result in new strategies and new gameplay. Just because most people don't take advantage of it, doesn't mean PvP was designed poorly. Otherwise, why do people still play WAR or GNB when they can just all play the same job? The answer is: Fun, gameplay, strategy.

Also, you don't need to hit every enemy with CC either, just 1 target is enough. Another player can also contribute to disable the other SMNs. You're expecting a 1v5 kind of gameplay to disable SMN LBs, and that's not very feasible in a team-based game mode. Unless you're a SGE (LB prevent all damage outside of range, negating SMN entirely - but limited by range and charge time) or have a good number of SCH/AST/jobs to counter the number of Limit Breaks based on team comp, disabling one target is enough. It doesn't matter if you can't stop them entirely, all you have to do is weaken the effect of the LB, and - this is where a lot of jobs have their own ways to contribute to this. I think that's where you're not understanding that is the beauty and the dynamic of PvP gameplay.

And if you're not willing to take the gamble and risk to open in? If you're not willing to die? Then play around it (mitigation tactic to burn their Limit Breaks). If your team comp doesn't allow it though, then you should be looking or creating the opportunity to dive in because you'd otherwise lose to a more coordinated attack (and this isn't a game balance issue, it's team composition difference - and something people should be taking into account when fighting opposing teams to plan the right strategy -- just like how the standard SMN strategy is to use LB together because that's playing to their strength). Depending on the mode, you don't have to always capture the objective first, nor do you have to focus on killing the opposing team. Sometimes, delaying the enemy is enough.

I dunno what to tell you other than skill issue because this isn't a problem for me whenever I run into the 5+ SMN + WHM team comp, and I queue in solo majority of the time for Frontlines. I play with a bunch of different jobs and team comps that can execute this strategy in various ways. Sure, we won't always win because sometimes we're less coordinated but that just means the enemy team has better team synergy than our team. You can't do anything about having worse players who can't think of a strategy to counter it - as this is a casual mode. That's what Frontlines PvP is about. Skill difference.

Assuming the one true way to counter by "running your own deathball" because you can't execute the aforementioned strategies that are normally employed in Crystalline Conflict just means skill issue for being unable to execute a flexible strategy to suit your needs on the fly and need the simplest solution for your problem. It's only a [Balance] issue if there's no way to counter it - A.K.A. 6.11a Black mage being overtuned in both damage, defense, and CC that the only solution is to focus them down so they can't become a bigger threat.