Just remove healers.

[Semirhage]

Gotta love this desperate attempt at cherry-picking and out-of-context quoting, it shows how pathetic the "healers need an overhaul/to be eliminated" crowd's arguments are.

Did I not write that no role is necessary to clear most of the content? Not healer, not tank, not DPS? Did I not provide examples of any two roles being enough?
Yes, I did. So why isn't Silver-strider proposing removing all unnecessary tanking and DPS skills?

And did I not write the healers are still useful? Yes, I did. Just like tanks and DPS are.

So in most content, healers are in the same boat as every other role: useful but not necessary. And this is not an accident, it's by design.

I often wonder why people who protest so vehemently about FFXIV healing can't be happy playing a healer, like I am. I think they doth protest too much, as the saying goes. Is their real motive that they miss having the old "I am your god now" capability of letting people die by not healing them, a capability rooted in them being necessary instead of just useful? Or do they really want to be a damage dealer, but are spoiled by the fast queue pops that healers get?

Well too bad for them. You queue as a healer, then just like a real combat medic, you're not as important as the guys with the belt-feds until something goes wrong. But when things do go wrong -- as they often do, in Duty Roulette -- you are priceless.

You keep enjoying Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis.

I'll keep arguing that my brain deserves more than that.

[Silverbane]

You keep enjoying Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis Dosis.
I'll keep arguing that my brain deserves more than that.

You're not arguing, you're just making a personal attack.
And a BS one too: I don't subscribe to your Big Lie that Sages and all other healers have a "1-button DPS" kit.
But you have already proven you don't understand the Sage DPS kit, and I'll just let it go at that.

By the way, I saw one of you "1-button DPS" idiots in Duty Roulette yesterday, standing about 10 yalms away from the pack of trash mobs that surrounded the tank, using Dosis on them. That Sage, like you, didn't know how to run a Sage effectively. He could have been the top damage-dealer for that encounter, but no, he followed your advice instead.

[ForteNightshade]

Well too bad for them. You queue as a healer, then just like a real combat medic, you're not as important as the guys with the belt-feds until something goes wrong. But when things do go wrong -- as they often do, in Duty Roulette -- you are priceless.

A combat medic is a design approach healers mains want as a compromise; a role who heals when necessary but otherwise has meaningful contribution in other areas.

This isn't how healers function in FFXIV. Your "meaningful contribution" is spamming the same button a bazillion times and trying not to die from boredom. A DPS player is always reasonably engaged, regardless of the content. Even tanks, though significantly less so due to the infrequent amount of tank busters, are engaged enough as they can fall back on a DPS rotation. Healers... have nothing. There is no DPS rotation nor an engaging set of tools. You have a binary: Babysitter or gimped DPS with one button; occasionally two.

But you have already proven you don't understand the Sage DPS kit, and I'll just let it go at that.

Are you really going to argue Eukrasian Dosis III every 30 seconds and two charges of Phlegma make up an engaging DPS kit? If so... that's utterly laughable. Warrior has more buttons worth pressing compared to that and it doesn't have many.

Before you mention Pneuma. It's the same potency as Dosis III. So you aren't engaging with it for DPS purposes but to avoid GCD healing. One of the few good healing concept they've implemented over the years but it's not going to make up the monotony that is spamming Dosis III 500+ times in Alliance raids. That isn't an exaggeration by the way. I've checked. One button pressed 500 times. Riveting gameplay, I assure you.

I'm guessing you didn't do P3S at the least yet.

P3S has been solo healed. In fact, it's arguably easier because tanks do the fountain mechanic better than healers. They take significantly less damage from each explosion and can invuln half the mechanic. Warrior can literally heal itself to full through three tower soaks with only two buttons. Equilibrium, for example, heals for over 150k with that buff. As for Life's Agony. You won't even see that in a good group nowadays, especially not with five DPS. Even if you do, AST negates its existence. Otherwise, you'll have healer LB3.

P4S is the only fight this tier where you have to outright gamble due to the fire stacks. You mitigate your odds by putting the one healer with a tank and shielding the hell out of them. At that point, you have a 1/6th chance of dying. Phase 2 has zero healer specific mechanics.

[Silverbane]

... Your "meaningful contribution" is spamming the same button a bazillion times and trying not to die from boredom. A DPS player is always reasonably engaged, regardless of the content. ... Are you really going to argue Eukrasian Dosis III every 30 seconds and two charges of Phlegma make up an engaging DPS kit? If so... that's utterly laughable.

Wow, it's like you don't even realize that Dyskrasia and Dyskrasia II (which are DPS gains over everything but Phlegma when you can hit two or more targets) even exist ... just like that idiot Sage I saw spamming Dosis into a pack of trash mobs, when he could have been putting the DPS to shame spamming Dyskrasia instead.

BTW, I looked up every character with Semirhage's character name in the Lodestone, and there's eight or so, none of whom have even one level of Sage. Not that having a few levels of Sage would guarantee good knowledge of the kit, but the fact that he or she appears to have none at all does make their pronouncements about Sage a bit less credible, don't you think?

How about you? Do you run Sage much? Do you burn down groups of trash mobs (and ads, sometimes) using Dyskrasia when you do? If not, why not? Afraid to stand in the thick of it? If so, don't worry, a fundamental unreality of FFXIV is that if the tank does his job, you can stick a flaming poker up a mobs butt while laughing in their face (if you're flexible enough LOL) and they'll still ignore you in favor of the tank. Most mobs don't care who's killing them, they just hate tanks!

[N.B. There is one thing I dislike about Sage: the names of the spells.]

[WaxSw]

Wow, it's like you don't even realize that Dyskrasia and Dyskrasia II (which are DPS gains over everything but Phlegma when you can hit two or more targets) even exist ... just like that idiot Sage I saw spamming Dosis into a pack of trash mobs, when he could have been putting the DPS to shame spamming Dyskrasia instead.

LOL, oh yes instead of pressing 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 we press 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 such differentiation. This must be trolling, no one is this dense.

BTW, I looked up every character with Semirhage's character name in the Lodestone, and there's eight or so, none of whom have even one level of Sage. Not that having a few levels of Sage would guarantee good knowledge of the kit, but the fact that he or she appears to have none at all does make their pronouncements about Sage a bit less credible, don't you think?

Not at all when logs have been posted here over and over and as Sage main I can confirm what they say is true. Sage's gameplay is so basic anyone with a bit of experience and knowledge about how healing works in this game can see how its played and if said player has played Sch even worse as the majority of their kit are almost copy-paste

[Silverbane]

LOL, oh yes instead of pressing 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 we press 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 such differentiation. This must be trolling, no one is this dense.

Oh, and 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 is just so much more exciting, right?
What you seem oblivious to is that knowing the right DPS key to hit depends on the combat situation, and can change pretty quickly, even if you do spam the one you pick until the situation changes. Understanding that and adapting to it on the fly takes some intelligence you don't seem to have.

Have you ever out-parsed good DPS on a trash pull? If not, you're a disgrace to SGE, because if you understood all the ramifications of your kit, you typically would. The exception is when the mobs are too brutal and/or the tank too squishy, then you have to adapt, heal a bit more and DPS a bit less. That's part of the fun: watching the tank's health bar (and your own) there among the sea of red mob health bars (generally from straight above the fight), evaluating the rate of change in each bar to see when you need to toss off an oGCD heal or mitigation (or, in the worst case, stop DPSing and just heal). And all the while watching for telegraphs of AoEs you need to dodge, and keeping half on eye on the health bars and any debuffs showing in the party list.

Ever done that? If not, why not?
If so, where you bored by it?

I genuinely enjoy running SGE. You don't. But rather than asking:

• What is Silverbane doing that I'm not?, or
• How might Silverbane's reasons for enjoying the game be different from mine?

you just insult me. Not that I care about that: it's not like you're anyone whose opinion I value, after all, and when the only response you have to my remarks is a personal attack, to me that says you've lost the argument.

So why don't you ask questions like the above? Are you afraid of the answers?
And why are you so desperate to convince other people that, in a world where people can all have legitimately different values and goals, no one with a brain can possibly honestly enjoy running an FFXIV healer?

Oh, and don't even try to argue I don't have a brain. I clearly do, as my writing demonstrates.

[ForteNightshade]

Wow, it's like you don't even realize that Dyskrasia and Dyskrasia II (which are DPS gains over everything but Phlegma when you can hit two or more targets) even exist ... just like that idiot Sage I saw spamming Dosis into a pack of trash mobs, when he could have been putting the DPS to shame spamming Dyskrasia instead.

Yes, because spamming the AoE equivalent makes sense a difference. How much of Dyskrasia II do you spam in actual challenging content? Only in Dragonsong, and it's only relevant in one phase out of seven. Huh. For such compelling gameplay, you sure don't use it. Almost like the difference between spamming Dosis III and Dyskrasia II is non-existent.

How about you? Do you run Sage much? Do you burn down groups of trash mobs (and ads, sometimes) using Dyskrasia when you do? If not, why not? Afraid to stand in the thick of it? If so, don't worry, a fundamental unreality of FFXIV is that if the tank does his job, you can stick a flaming poker up a mobs butt while laughing in their face (if you're flexible enough LOL) and they'll still ignore you in favor of the tank. Most mobs don't care who's killing them, they just hate tanks!

This entire argument is nothing more than a sad strawman. Yes, I spam Dyskrasia in AoE situations. It doesn't suddenly make healer gameplay any more engaging because you're trading one boring button for another. The notion that people simply don't understand how healer DPS functions, and that's why they find it boring, laughably misses the point so much I have to assume you're trolling. Looking people up on the Lodestone doesn't amount to much. They can be using alts for one reason or another, and frankly, leveling a job in this game isn't much of an accomplishment. Nevertheless, if credentials is what you want, you're welcome to look up Cassandra/Cactuar on certain websites. I'll hazard a guess I have far more than you.

Have you ever out-parsed good DPS on a trash pull? If not, you're a disgrace to SGE, because if you understood all the ramifications of your kit, you typically would.

No, you wouldn't. Good DPS burst for significantly more than healers. Either you aren't playing with good DPS players or you're assuming they aren't good when in reality they're conversing their kit for the upcoming boss or a larger pack. Assuming all things equal, if you put a DRG with everything ready to go against SGE in a ten pull pack. That DRG will outshine you by a mile.

[WaxSw]

1-2-3-1-2-3 excitment

It IS much more more exciting, not only gives a bit of room for failure but also those 1-2-3 combos have something else attached to them, be it resource generation/different effects that tied into each other/positionals/branching paths, those tools are far more engaging than spam 1 button over 100 times per instance

The whole combat fast changing is nonsense, there is no fight in the game that changes wildly from AoE to ST outside very short specific scenarios and add phases and there is no extra thought or complexity in changing from "standard single target nuke that does not have any consequence" to "standard AoE nuke that does not have any consequence".

Not even gonna comment on the intelligence one, just gonna say that thinking so highly of changing from spamming 1 to spamming 2 speaks way more about you than me.

Outparse and healing dungeons

Out-parsed, yes, out-damaged no and its impossible as proven by logs:

(I'm just showing normal mode as it has way more AoE than any raid)

As anyone can see even at the 95th percentile a Sage which boast the highest dps in dungeons is significantly less damaging than a dps on the same range, in fact as shown in the following image one would have to go as low as as 40th percentile (definitively not "good" players) to see a dps comparable to what a 95th percentile Sage does:


Dungeons runs are so absurdly undertuned that tanks can solo them so there is barely anything to heal and there is a large amount of examples of Exs and above that do not require healers so the whole "watching the tank bar go low" argument fails by game design, even in the encounters with significant damage (super high end basically) due to the scripted nature of healing in the game there is no variation (and as such the healing gameplay is lacking being more a puzzle than actual fast thinking) and no adjustment bar "this guy fucked up the mechanic" and in those scenarios the fuck ups are usually non healable instant deaths, as healer healing is only fun the first clear, past that is mindless repetition with a bland kit that does not even require even a 10% of my GCDs and not even a 40% of my whole gameplay actions. As example of how fucked this is here is a P4S P2 log as Sage (which has the highest hps requirements of the current tier):



Dosis alone was almost 60% of all I did in the fight and the whole healing not even reached 25% of my total casts and not even 1% of my total GCDs even tough I was the healer healing the most in that encounter

Ever done that? If not, why not?
If so, where you bored by it?

As shown previously, I've done that in probably a variety of encounters far wider than most of the people, Where I bored? Let's say that mindlessly pressing the same button 144 times is not precisely what could be described as good MMO gameplay

Why you enjoy it argument and insults

There was no argument to begin with I was just surprised and found funny the intellectual dishonesty using dyskrasia as example of engaging gameplay in Sage is and thought no one could be saying it seriously. If you find it complex and engaging more power to you but as said previously it says a lot about you

Let alone how I said "no one is this dense" as insult (if you consider it one) where you straight up said "Understanding that and adapting to it on the fly takes some intelligence you don't seem to have."

So why don't you ask questions like the above? Are you afraid of the answers?
And why are you so desperate to convince other people that

In the message I replied to there was not a single question so I don't know what you want me to answer but...

different values

I'll answer this:
First I do not think that lack of brain is a requirement for enjoying the job, however in this game I do think that outside very small niches like optimization the majority of players that enjoy it are simply extremely innexperienced.

There is a multitude of reasons but they can be summed up with:
-Extremely bland kit with only "apparent" complexity
-Multitude of redundant tools
-Scripted game design
-Lack of healing requirements make healers barely necessary if they are to begin with

Healing for the less skilled can be sometimes fun as they do not realize the true power of their tools, do not know the standard healing playstyle or simply do not read their tooltips but past that point it becomes a role about doing a mindless, extremely repetitive task over and over to fulfill a job that may not even be necessary or impactful which is quite the opposite of engaging.

[Semirhage]

You're not arguing, you're just making a personal attack.
And a BS one too: I don't subscribe to your Big Lie that Sages and all other healers have a "1-button DPS" kit.
But you have already proven you don't understand the Sage DPS kit, and I'll just let it go at that.

By the way, I saw one of you "1-button DPS" idiots in Duty Roulette yesterday, standing about 10 yalms away from the pack of trash mobs that surrounded the tank, using Dosis on them. That Sage, like you, didn't know how to run a Sage effectively. He could have been the top damage-dealer for that encounter, but no, he followed your advice instead.

Oh. I see we're doing that thing again where you dance back and forth between the healer single-target and AOE "rotation", and pretend like I don't know what I'm talking about. Because whenever I say bosses are Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare, you go "HURRR, but you cast HOLY on trash packs not GLARE, you dummy fool idiot, see you don't know how healers play!"

Every single other person in this thread knows exactly what I'm talking about when I say Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare. Healer damage rotations are -braindead simple-. They have no nuance. They don't require thought at all. Swap the AOE spell out for the single target one if you have the correct number of targets.

I don't need a single level on Sage to see it spams one button over and over and over and over again just like White Mage. "One button DPS" isn't a "Big Lie" just because you state it is. Your AOE rotation is one button, with an occasional once or twice per minute ability. Your single target rotation is one button, with an occasional once or twice per minute ability. It IS a one-button rotation. Unless you're hallucinating extra buttons? I wouldn't put that past you.

why are yall still arguing in circles with a wall

Some days the dumb opinions of Sylphies are the only activity the healer subforum gets. *shrug*. They're so unbelievably wrong about how healers play, what constitutes fun, and everything in between that I'd rather not see a newbie come in here and read their nonsense unopposed.

[QooEr]

Some days the dumb opinions of Sylphies are the only activity the healer subforum gets. *shrug*. They're so unbelievably wrong about how healers play, what constitutes fun, and everything in between that I'd rather not see a newbie come in here and read their nonsense unopposed.

i mean i guess i understand the sentiment since theres nothing to discuss anymore cuz healers have been in the near-exact same state for at least 3 years , but this specific sylphie has gone for way too long saying the same stuff. (tbh i dont even think a newbie would take that nonsense to heart if they look at their tooltips for more than 2 minutes but hey)