Endwalker is the most controversial expansion

[KageTokage]

That applies to ShB as well right? I guess I just struggle to see where Endwalkers handling of time travel is so different as to make it a problem

The problem with Endwalker was that it attached a causal loop to one of the most fundamental far-reaching events in the game's lore that shaped the world and the motivations of several characters in ways both direct and indirect.

It also left a very ugly question hanging in the air of just how much Venat/Hydaelyn knew was going to happen and just let it happen because "the future said so", and makes some instances where she claims have been trying to prevent tragedy (Such as with the First and the flood of light) feel like she was going through the motions because it had to happen in order to maintain the loop.

I feel like it cheapened a lot of the decisions made by various characters in general. IE, the context for Emet-Selch saving us from Elidibus was no longer just a matter of him having been convinced to place faith in us and the sundered; nope, he already knew us personally beforehand and that we were to be instrumental in stopping the Final Days.

[Rokke]

It also left a very ugly question hanging in the air of just how much Venat/Hydaelyn knew was going to happen and just let it happen because "the future said so", and makes some instances where she claims have been trying to prevent tragedy (Such as with the First and the flood of light) feel like she was going through the motions because it had to happen in order to maintain the loop.

The devs explaining that letting Emet escape the sundering was a conscious decision only makes this hangup funnier. Poor Arbert was damned to watch his world burn 12k years before he was born.

[EaraGrace]

The problem with Endwalker was that it attached a causal loop to one of the most fundamental far-reaching events in the game's lore that shaped the world and the motivations of several characters in ways both direct and indirect.

It also left a very ugly question hanging in the air of just how much Venat/Hydaelyn knew was going to happen and just let it happen because "the future said so", and makes some instances where she claims have been trying to prevent tragedy (Such as with the First and the flood of light) feel like she was going through the motions because it had to happen in order to maintain the loop.

I feel like it cheapened a lot of the decisions made by various characters in general. IE, the context for Emet-Selch saving us from Elidibus was no longer just a matter of him having been convinced to place faith in us and the sundered; nope, he already knew us personally beforehand and that we were to be instrumental in stopping the Final Days.

I think I’ve made my feelings on the “she made sure things happened as we described” reading clear elsewhere so I’m gonna let that bear lie. What I will ask however is why is the ambiguity really a problem? It isn’t necessary to understand to make sense of the plot, as having several wildly different interpretations that all can work shows that it’s not a requirement for the story. It’s not a failure of the writing when it’s meant to be up for interpretation then, which given Yoshi Ps comments it seems it was meant to be. So what’s the issue?

[Rokke]

I think I’ve made my feelings on the “she made sure things happened as we described” reading clear elsewhere so I’m gonna let that bear lie. What I will ask however is why is the ambiguity really a problem? It isn’t necessary to understand to make sense of the plot, as having several wildly different interpretations that all can work shows that it’s not a requirement for the story. It’s not a failure of the writing when it’s meant to be up for interpretation then, which given Yoshi Ps comments it seems it was meant to be. So what’s the issue?

What ambiguity is there? We have a time loop or we don't. Supposed ambiguity isn't the issue, revealing the time line to be predestined all along is the issue.

[EaraGrace]

What ambiguity is there? We have a time loop or we don't. Supposed ambiguity isn't the issue, revealing the time line to be predestined all along is the issue.

Fundamentally it’s a difference of whether the timeline was only capable of being changed by acting irrationally or if it was intentionally set up to play out the way it did. Think of it like a stream flowing down a hill versus flowing down a carefully dug creek.

And once again I don’t think the timeline being casual determinist is an issue, and if it is then unfortunately there’s some bad news for folks about our own existence.

[KageTokage]

I think I’ve made my feelings on the “she made sure things happened as we described” reading clear elsewhere so I’m gonna let that bear lie. What I will ask however is why is the ambiguity really a problem? It isn’t necessary to understand to make sense of the plot, as having several wildly different interpretations that all can work shows that it’s not a requirement for the story. It’s not a failure of the writing when it’s meant to be up for interpretation then, which given Yoshi Ps comments it seems it was meant to be. So what’s the issue?

I'm mostly confused as to why they would want to even leave that question open for a character whom the narrative frames as unanimously good and a hero and Yoshi himself wanted the audience to view as such. It created a dissonance for some that left them feeling detached from the story.

Had they simply had her memories get wiped at the end of Elpis and thus left all of her choices untainted by knowledge of the future, it would've eliminated basically all of the reasons people took issue with how the story portrayed her. I remember you saying you'd feel like that would "cheapen" the decisions she'd made, but I feel like it would've made things much more gratifying if she had actually had to grapple with the weight of whether or not she made the right choice, as opposed to the angle of "It hurts to do this, but it's going to pay off eventually".

[DPZ2]

Had they simply had her memories get wiped at the end of Elpis and thus left all of her choices untainted by knowledge of the future, it would've eliminated basically all of the reasons people took issue with how the story portrayed her. I remember you saying you'd feel like that would "cheapen" the decisions she'd made, but I feel like it would've made things much more gratifying if she had actually had to grapple with the weight of whether or not she made the right choice, as opposed to the angle of "It hurts to do this, but it's going to pay off eventually".

Had her memories been wiped things may have turned out the same, for sure.

What would have changed, however, would have been the lack of the Sharlayan "mission" that resulted in the creation of that spaceship, since Venat would not have recognized the need to go to the ends of the Universe (or at least evacuate the populace of the world to another planet) in order to address the real problem.

Heck, there could even be a Universe where every soul is quietly screaming for eternity because they were all drawn to the edge of the Universe and stuffed into that great big ball of Depression. Two, in fact. One where the Ancients eventually died in despair on an unsundered world where Venat lost her memory, and one where we died in despair because Hydaelyn was still called, but Venat knew nothing about the real cause of the Final Days.

[Xirean]

Had her memories been wiped things may have turned out the same, for sure.

What would have changed, however, would have been the lack of the Sharlayan "mission" that resulted in the creation of that spaceship, since Venat would not have recognized the need to go to the ends of the Universe (or at least evacuate the populace of the world to another planet) in order to address the real problem.

Heck, there could even be a Universe where every soul is quietly screaming for eternity because they were all drawn to the edge of the Universe and stuffed into that great big ball of Depression. Two, in fact. One where the Ancients eventually died in despair on an unsundered world where Venat lost her memory, and one where we died in despair because Hydaelyn was still called, but Venat knew nothing about the real cause of the Final Days.

I disagree. If she didn't know that Meteion was the cause then the plan to use the moon ship would have made more sense in context. As is, there is no reason to assume it would actually keep people safe and she should know that. But if she didn't then the assumption "just get off this planet" could be considered reasonable. It would even make our discovery of Meteion and the plan to get her better because we would be revealing that just fleeing wouldn't work.

[Iscah]

Had her memories been wiped things may have turned out the same, for sure.

What would have changed, however, would have been the lack of the Sharlayan "mission" that resulted in the creation of that spaceship, since Venat would not have recognized the need to go to the ends of the Universe (or at least evacuate the populace of the world to another planet) in order to address the real problem.

I think it could have worked well if she had been memory wiped, created Hydaelyn for her own not-influenced-by-future-spoilers reasons, and then regained those memories upon entering the aetherial sea. She could have been trying her best to break the time loop once she's aware of it, just knowing that if she fails to do so, we're still waiting here as a backup plan – a final stop if she can't break the cycle sooner.

[Larirawiel]

Had they simply had her memories get wiped at the end of Elpis and thus left all of her choices untainted by knowledge of the future, it would've eliminated basically all of the reasons people took issue with how the story portrayed her. I remember you saying you'd feel like that would "cheapen" the decisions she'd made, but I feel like it would've made things much more gratifying if she had actually had to grapple with the weight of whether or not she made the right choice, as opposed to the angle of "It hurts to do this, but it's going to pay off eventually".

Sorry, but they should never let Elpis into the game like this. The problem is, since we are active in the past, there is no way to fix the causal loops without introducing new different ones. If you let Venat's memory being erased then there would never be a space ship. Because Venat would not know, that Meteion is responsible for the first final days etc. And even with this knowledge, Venat acts really stupid. I guess, the story writes must do that or they would have to retcon bigger parts of the story. And if you look more accurate on it, they have already made a big retcon. After dealing in Elpis in the past we are already in an altered reality. In ShB Emet-Selch tells us, that Hydaelyn fought with Zodiark and then she used the sundering ability and sundered everything except herself, Elidibus, Emet-Selch and Lahabrea. But in the EW story, she does not fight Zodiark. She went to the Convocation of Fourteen and said: "Loool, you all are sundered now!" And bammm, we are in an alternative universe.

Time traveling is hard. If the story writers have no clue how to do it right then they should not try it.


Cheers