What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

I like this idea, especially because of the message it brings. Because at that point a lot of Garleans would be struggling to come to terms with their identity. Up until now, it was okay to treat anything below a military rank (ie, anyone titled fae and lower) like hot garbage, ESPECIALLY if they were aan. It was okay to look at foreigners and treat them like the actual spawns of satan. That it was okay to feel pride in being the cool Ceruleum-based race that withstood adversity and prejudice and stuck it to the others. Only for everything to come crashing down on their golden heads when they realized "...are we the baddies?"

By having the provinces weigh in a bit more and see what they could take away from Garlean rule, it also could have them extend a balm to the Garlean people themselves. Show them "Yeah, you were duped and you weren't thinking outside your prejudice. If you're willing to learn, I'm willing to work with you". Which carries the usual tone FF14 has of forgiveness and coming together.

However I do want to point out that it's also a delicate subject, given also more recent developments in the western world. It IS realistic for provinces to only see Garlemald as evil incarnate and not want to associate or take anything away from their rule. In fact, keep in mind Bajsaljen himself was met with rather strong opposition to his idea and he had to know how to turn them around. You can't just erase decades of mistreatment and pretend you can now sing kumbaya together without having any form of justice done or being repaid. Sure, this is a fantasy world, but it's one that's somewhat grounded at times, and it's played and enjoyed by real people who probably don't want to forgive Garlemald at every turn.

The thing is, Garlemald was done dirty as well. They were a peaceful group of farmers just living their lives until they were pushed out into uninhabitable territory. I honestly don’t blame them for turning to conquest. After all, conquest is the only reason Limsa exists to this day. It’s why though i’m upset that this upcoming “conflict of morals” will probably be us fighting garleans who want to take back their homeland.

[Rulakir]

Hermes being a friend is a generous interpretation, especially as we knew he became Fandaniel and there were early signs he was off kilter.

As for the story itself, I guess I'll re-post one of Lurina's older quotes: "The more controversial a plot element, the tighter the plot has to be to get people to accept it in good faith, and 'cultural genocide was the right call to save the world' is about as close to maximum controversy as you can get."

The plot wasn't tight. Hermes and Venat were woefully underdeveloped, in fact, Hermes spends all of the game except for a brief time in Elpis being a nihilistic clown. Venat does a complete 180 from her characterization in Elpis to the point that her statements before and after the dungeon outright contradict themselves. The narrative fails to make the case that the sundering was necessary as Venat's POV and virtually any other POV in the game conflict with one another. These are surface level issues without even deep diving where it becomes even more problematic.

And on Venat and her plan, the funny part is the only reason the scions survived when they got to ultima thule was a complete accident, thancred literally charging in and giving them all a means to survive and exist in that space, like it seems venat literally made little attempt to study ways to counteract dynamis when we fucking know ancients can with the bloody elpis flowers that emet and hyth did!

This is what bugs me about people saying Venat's plan "worked". Venat didn't have a plan she had a gamble and it barely paid off in the end being reliant on the WoL having just the right amount of friends, including Zenos.

[Lucida3b]

I think acknowledgement of hypocrisy or at least nuance is one of the best things you can do for conflicts of morals, I mean i would argue HW did a lot of that, as well as some ways Stormblood but in a different manner with how life under a dictatorship can make people act.

Hermes being a friend is a generous interpretation, especially as we knew he became Fandaniel and there were early signs he was off kilter.

As for the story itself, I guess I'll re-post one of Lurina's older quotes: "The more controversial a plot element, the tighter the plot has to be to get people to accept it in good faith, and 'cultural genocide was the right call to save the world' is about as close to maximum controversy as you can get."

Fantastic way of phrasing that, It's similar to thoughts I've had one varying pretentious or very dark ideas/touchy subject matters. You better not be a hypocrite on it, otherwise I may just think it's less honest bringing up the topic and more the author whining about something. Like the many MANY writers who go 'immortality bad' at some point, where it just feels like 90% of the time it's because they're having a mid life crisis or something.

[Theodric]

Pretty much every nation in both the real world and within FFXIV itself has been founded on conquest and oppression. There's certainly nuance to it but I'd rather the game avoid being preachy if it can't even remain consistent in terms of the established morals and messaging it claims to value.

The war between Nidhogg's brood and the Ishgardians lasted for a thousand years yet was readily handwaved for the most part so the same thing could have easily have been done with the much shorter conflict between Garlemald and the regions it chose to invade and conquer.

[KageTokage]

The thing is, Garlemald was done dirty as well. They were a peaceful group of farmers just living their lives until they were pushed out into uninhabitable territory. I honestly don’t blame them for turning to conquest. After all, conquest is the only reason Limsa exists to this day. It’s why though i’m upset that this upcoming “conflict of morals” will probably be us fighting garleans who want to take back their homeland.

I'm praying that if Ilsabard does become the subject of the next expansion that extremists on the side of provincial peoples are going to be just as much of a problem as the Garlean legions occupying them.

[Lauront]

I like this idea, especially because of the message it brings. Because at that point a lot of Garleans would be struggling to come to terms with their identity. Up until now, it was okay to treat anything below a military rank (ie, anyone titled fae and lower) like hot garbage, ESPECIALLY if they were aan. It was okay to look at foreigners and treat them like the actual spawns of satan. That it was okay to feel pride in being the cool Ceruleum-based race that withstood adversity and prejudice and stuck it to the others. Only for everything to come crashing down on their golden heads when they realized "...are we the baddies?"

By having the provinces weigh in a bit more and see what they could take away from Garlean rule, it also could have them extend a balm to the Garlean people themselves. Show them "Yeah, you were duped and you weren't thinking outside your prejudice. If you're willing to learn, I'm willing to work with you". Which carries the usual tone FF14 has of forgiveness and coming together.

However I do want to point out that it's also a delicate subject, given also more recent developments in the western world. It IS realistic for provinces to only see Garlemald as evil incarnate and not want to associate or take anything away from their rule. In fact, keep in mind Bajsaljen himself was met with rather strong opposition to his idea and he had to know how to turn them around. You can't just erase decades of mistreatment and pretend you can now sing kumbaya together without having any form of justice done or being repaid. Sure, this is a fantasy world, but it's one that's somewhat grounded at times, and it's played and enjoyed by real people who probably don't want to forgive Garlemald at every turn.

TBF, if they were to follow the expansion model he is suggesting, I think they have every opportunity to explore the darker side of it with Ala Mhigo, Doma and Dalmasca (were it to be included.) When it comes to helping the Garleans recover from their situation, I'd like to see the provinces more sympathetic to their rule also called upon as while you rightly point out that the story shouldn't erase the misdeeds performed in the empire's name, neither would it be realistic to pretend every single province was abused by it, and there were hints at some provinces either seeing no change or improvement throughout the expansions, so I'd like to retain this with an ultimate end point of the empire reforming to become more like Archades, and yes you could weave in the sort of theme you mention - you could even have division in these provinces, as even if Garlemald treated some better than others, that does not mean they'd be bereft of those eager to use a chaotic situation to (re)gain power.

If I had to alter one further aspect of Anhaato's "rework" of the story, it could be to have the empire serve as Venat's tool rather than an Ascian one, as there's aspects of the Purebloods that they could amalgamate with her own ideology - maybe have them be her attempt at completely depriving a race of magical power, only for it not to work out quite as she expected and then leaving them to wither on the vine, possibly even with the Ascians taking over that attempt later on. I don't think rewriting their state purely to act as an instrument of chaos did them any favours, and having the Ascians swoop in to exploit their unexpected ascent rather than engineer the entire thing would've worked better for me.

[Theodric]

I'm praying that if Ilsabard does become the subject of the next expansion that extremists on the side of provincial peoples are going to be just as much of a problem as the Garlean legions occupying them.

Another 'Ilberd' type figure would be wonderful.

The Witcher 3 is one of my favourite games in existence and a good example of the sort of grey morality and nuance that I enjoy. It doesn't hide the fact that the peasantry can be just as brutal and horrific as seasoned soldiers, nor does it pretend as if every noble sits around scheming and finding ways to be evil and petty. Garlemald has always been done dirty and isn't much of a realistic take on an Empire in general - all the nuance is hidden away in side quests and the MSQ's gaslight the player by pretending as if they should be shocked and distrusting whenever a pleasant or reasonable Garlean who isn't a defector pops up somewhere.

I do wonder if they'll even bother giving Garlean fans anything resembling a meaningful bone moving forward, though. It's always the antagonists, no matter how sympathetic, who have to 'move on' and avoid claiming what is rightfully theirs. Meanwhile the 'good guys' walk away with absolutely everything they could possibly want and more.

[Lucida3b]

This is what bugs me about people saying Venat's plan "worked". Venat didn't have a plan she had a gamble and it barely paid off in the end being reliant on the WoL having just the right amount of friends, including Zenos.

Even her backup plan makes no sense as other people have said, like are we presuming metion/endsinger can't just find them after the spaceship blasts off? if you wanted to make it feel more organic maybe include something like maybe one purpose for the mothercrystal was to basically act as a aetheric curtain like zodiark does for example, of course that would require acknowleding zodiark as more then a 'misbegotten wish'

[jameseoakes]

If I had to alter one further aspect of Anhaato's "rework" of the story, it could be to have the empire serve as Venat's tool rather than an Ascian one, as there's aspects of the Purebloods that they could amalgamate with her own ideology - maybe have them be her attempt at completely depriving a race of magical power, only for it not to work out quite as she expected and then leaving them to wither on the vine, possibly even with the Ascians taking over that attempt later on. I don't think rewriting their state purely to act as a tool of instrument did them any favours, and having the Ascians swoop in to exploit their unexpected ascent rather than engineer the entire thing would've worked better for me.

I do find it odd how the Garlean Empire seems to be a much better fit for Venats Ideology than anyone else in the game as they seem to exemplify her suffering makes you stronger and that strength lets you make your own future.

[anhaato]

I like what you outlined a lot better than what we got, so it's a mixture of enjoyment and sadness reading this. I'd probably want to see an even-handed approach to Garlemald, i.e. also showing the provinces that were either unchanged or benefited from its rule, much like Bozja, rather than it just being a case of unadulterated "empire bad", and still retain elements of what they did with EW for the Garleans, but otherwise, I think this would be a much more satisfactory and better paced trajectory to me.

That's fair. It would also add some conflict from states that don't want us to go to war with Garlemald lest they be defeated and suddenly states that were dependent upon them would be thrown into economic uncertainty. I didn't really consider that to begin with, but to be fair that's also because the game doesn't really give us any inkling that states like that exist, and I wouldn't know how to fit them in anyway.

Edit: Doma could’ve been that, more than just some annoying farmers. It would’ve been interesting if they had been so thoroughly economically throttled that defeating Garlemald would’ve left them hanging. Unfortunately they made Yotsuyu a genocidal maniac towards her own people so that sentiment was never going to happen.