Are there so few Dancers that nobody's giving feedback?

[Sililos]

You guys really are giving some great info. Thank you all.

Thanks Iscah for the glam advice, gives me something to look into there.

[RayneBoemir]

I see plenty of dancers online.

[Anhra]

Dancer is the Job i dislike the most, so i wont bother giving any proper feedback on it.

[Mimilu]

Dancer is the Job i dislike the most, so i wont bother giving any proper feedback on it.

What do you dislike about it? >o>

[Anhra]

What do you dislike about it? >o>

The short answer is: everything.

The somewhat longer answer, is because Dancer is, like many other Jobs more style over substance. It looks flashy, but its terrible by design in terms of gameplay. Most of its Skills (a fate that most Jobs suffer from), is that they have too many pure damage abilities or pure healing abilities and utilities that enhance mostly damage or ways of dealing more damage. Now, for the part that makes me hate dancer specifically, is that in terms of Gameplay, it isnt a Dancer, but a ranged mage that uses 2 Chakrams and instant cast Spells. I dislike the fact that Dancer has a means of healing and shielding which should instead be in the hands of Healers. While it isnt much contribution on their part, it is one small thing in a giant pile of many other small things that contribute to the fact that my favorite Role Healers, have rarely a chance to properly Heal in most Content (i will elaborate on this further on a future Thread im making).

[ThorneDynasty]

So basically because healers are a mess you take it out on a fairly solidly designed support DPS, that could actually use more support options if anything? Misguided but I feel your pain.

EDIT: I mean, really? Dancer barely even has any healing skills outside of the rare downtime and the minimal cure waltz that sometimes helps in a clutch situation but hardly replaces one proper heal spell. If you actually want to complain about other roles stepping on your toes in any informed thread-worthy way, look at tanks.

[cjbeagle]

I dislike the fact that Dancer has a means of healing and shielding which should instead be in the hands of Healers. While it isnt much contribution on their part, it is one small thing in a giant pile of many other small things that contribute to the fact that my favorite Role Healers, have rarely a chance to properly Heal in most Content (i will elaborate on this further on a future Thread im making).

This entire take is vapid, but I'm curious about this part specifically - you hate that dps have small heals and weak mitigation on long cooldowns because it supposedly infringes on healers' role. Do you also hate that healers have damage-dealing abilities? By your logic, that infringes on dps' role, no?

[Anhra]

So basically because healers are a mess you take it out on a fairly solidly designed support DPS, that could actually use more support options if anything? Misguided but I feel your pain.

EDIT: I mean, really? Dancer barely even has any healing skills outside of the rare downtime and the minimal cure waltz that sometimes helps in a clutch situation but hardly replaces one proper heal spell. If you actually want to complain about other roles stepping on your toes in any informed thread-worthy way, look at tanks.

As i said, it is the whole picture that makes me dislike DNC, not just the Healing part, but i do say that the Healing part itches me the most.

This entire take is vapid, but I'm curious about this part specifically - you hate that dps have small heals and weak mitigation on long cooldowns because it supposedly infringes on healers' role. Do you also hate that healers have damage-dealing abilities? By your logic, that infringes on dps' role, no?

It would make sense if a Dancer would provide utility Buffs in the form of Auras during any dance performed for example, but distributing healing effects on every Job just to lessen the burden for Healers when it isn't due at all, IS in my Book, terrible design.

[Eorzean_username]

The somewhat longer answer, is because Dancer is, like many other Jobs more style over substance. It looks flashy, but its terrible by design in terms of gameplay.

This seems reasonable enough. Dancer has always been fairly shallow from a design perspective, with Director Yoshida more-or-less flat-out saying that Dancer was intended to be easy and approachable. There's something fair to be argued for how insipid long stretches of the Dancer cycle can become in-between Tech Step burst windows — and the ever-decreasing value of Standard Step, as well as its refusal to scale with Skill Speed, has eroded one of the few "satisfying checkpoints" that the rotation used to have.

Most of its Skills (a fate that most Jobs suffer from), is that they have too many pure damage abilities or pure healing abilities and utilities that enhance mostly damage or ways of dealing more damage.

Here's where I get confused, though. As you said, this is a broad FFXIV design issue, where the developers have become hyperallergenic to giving a Job anything that isn't some form of bland flat damage gain. Dancer doesn't seem to be any more of an example than other Jobs in this case, and in fact, Dancer is one of the few Jobs that has kept an "unusual" amount of supportive fluff.

The fact that Dancer's paltry selection of support tools is considered "notable" at this point in FFXIV could reasonably be considered somewhat depressing — I'm remembering the halcyon days when a new Job like Ninja was actually allowed to release with things like a special jump animation, reduced fall damage, and Goad — but again, this is a broader design issue, not something I'd really blame Dancer for specifically.

Now, for the part that makes me hate dancer specifically, is that in terms of Gameplay, it isnt a Dancer, but a ranged mage that uses 2 Chakrams and instant cast Spells.

Well, your dissatisfaction might be understandable if you're looking at the Dancer example from FFT or FFX-2, but more broadly, the FF franchise has also treated Dancers as a hybrid Physical Attacker Support with some dancing-themed utility actions, such as in FF5 and FFXI. In this way, FFXIV's version of Dancer is actually reasonably consistent with the broader franchise, and mostly meets or exceeds the concept/fantasy expectations based on that.

It's still fair if you feel that this FF style of Dancer is not consistent with your own internal sensibilities about what you expect from a "Dancer" class in a game, but I don't think that Dancer is "off the mark" within the Final Fantasy series.

I dislike the fact that Dancer has a means of healing and shielding which should instead be in the hands of Healers. While it isnt much contribution on their part, it is one small thing in a giant pile of many other small things that contribute to the fact that my favorite Role Healers, have rarely a chance to properly Heal in most Content (i will elaborate on this further on a future Thread im making).

In the same context, this seems strange to me. These aspects of Dancer basically help it remain consistent with its general place in FF games as a hybrid support (especially FFXI, where it had strong healing tools).

I think that the problem of Healers being able to coast by on mostly OGCDs is a broader issue with FFXIV's design — both encounter pacing, and healer toolkit bloat — rather than something specifically-triggered by non-Healer Jobs having some (middling) overlapping utility.

It would make sense if a Dancer would provide utility Buffs in the form of Auras during any dance performed for example [...]

Again, you seem to be wishing for a more traditional MMO/RPG true Support-style class, like the kinds that were more prominent in pre-WOW / non-WOW-model alternative systems. This is reasonable from a broader perspective, since these types of roles often fall to "musical" classes — DND/EverQuest Bards, etc.

And personally, yeah, I think it'd be more fun and more interesting if Jobs were still allowed to have broader utility support, like old Astrologian Cards, Ninja support actions, etc. Dancer Dances seem like a good hypothetical place to pack that kind of stuff in.

But FFXIV has moved aggressively away from those kind of tools in general (except in PvP), and it was never really part of Dancer's design philosophy, since FFXIV Dancer was modeled more after the FF5/FFXI design since they wanted it to fit into the Ranged DPS slot.

[Anhra]

This seems reasonable enough. Dancer has always been fairly shallow from a design perspective, with Director Yoshida more-or-less flat-out saying that Dancer was intended to be easy and approachable. There's something fair to be argued for how insipid long stretches of the Dancer cycle can become in-between Tech Step burst windows — and the ever-decreasing value of Standard Step, as well as its refusal to scale with Skill Speed, has eroded one of the few "satisfying checkpoints" that the rotation used to have.

What many People get wrong, is that Difficulty, has NOTHING TO DO with Accessability. Allow me to give you a rather amusing Example,

Is it difficult to slap yourself with a Baseball Bat until you start Bleeding? Maybe, but that does not mean that you CAN'T do it. The same, can be said to playing Video Games. Despite being considered overall Difficult, Games like Elden Ring have reached a vast amount of People of all Skill levels and you can easily tell by its success how well recieved it was. Theres always bad Apples here and there, but if you try to cater to ALL people, you will cater to noone for true.



As for your other points in your reply, i guess i will take the Bait and bother delivering. Let us go straight to the Deets of Dancer:

- 4 Skills for Single target Rotation
- 4 Skills for Multi-target Rotation
- 4 Fan Dances which only deal Damage which are limited by a lolgimmick Gauge
- Blade Dance that is limited by a Lolgimmick Gauge
- 2 "Dancing" Skills that make you repeat the first two Points for a AoE effect
- Dash with 3 charges
- Flourish that only serves to trigger Procs
- Choosing Dance Partner
- Tillana and Starfall Dance which is just more AoE dmg
- Devilment and Improvisation for Buffs
- and lastly the Heal and the Shield Buff

With that, we got ourselves a total of 24 Skills on our Hotbar. if you look closely, you notice that Dancer has, despite being considered a Support Job, HALF of its Kit, with nothing but Rotation Skills bloated. This could easily be turned into Combo Actions like in PvP, reducing the Number of 12 to 3. I wont deny the fact that Devilment and Improvisation are proper Utility Skills, but the Heal and Shield, should be replaced by something more fitting of a dancer, which could be by giving, for example, more Movement Speed or even reducing the GCD of your Partner and yourself trough one mean or another. Tillana and Starfall Dance are OK by themselves, but look to me like filler Abilities since the Job has no clear direction to go with its identity. I would even go as far as saying, that Dancer has been a rush Job.

If i were to make a suggestion for Dancer in regards to Job identity, I'd say make it a phy.ranged Job that only has AoE Attacks or short overall range and low damage, but becomes under circumstances, faster and faster.