On Venat's Role in the Story

[Shookbeast]

What if Venat made this decision based on info we don’t have yet? (Possibly why the Sundering flashback was that messy metaphorical version rather than a literal telling).

At some point in a future patch/expansion, what if we do end up collecting all our Azem shards - and then go back in time to meet the Ancients again - but to an even earlier point, before Elpis.

Once back in time, (pre-Elpis), we discover there is not yet an Azem (our Azem) because we actually are that person. We find out our Azem just randomly appeared one day - and through humorous circumstances was simply assumed to be an Ancient with very unusual behavior/ways of thinking. (Which does describe Azem…)

We meet Venat, the current Azem, and she learns we’ve met before - but in her future. So now Venat is working with the knowledge that she has to meet us again, for this past meeting to happen. So she sits on this information until she meets our WOL for what would be the second time for her, and the first time for us.

Now, this opens a can of worms regarding Venat having multiple chances to alter the future based on meeting the WOL - but perhaps the circumstances of our visit preclude her from changing the timeline - because we need Venat to do the Sundering so something in the future can happen? Perhaps something that even undoes the more negative elements of the Sundering itself?

If this theory is true - she would help nominate our WOL to be a new Azem, (giving us access to all sort of things and people), while she would step down, refuse to enter the lifestream, and take up “research” at Elpis as she waits for our character to visit again.

This would also help explain some of the current Azem’s foreknowledge about our WOL, and perhaps why we have yet to see them in game.

To be clear, I’m not attempting narrative gymnastics to make Venat’s actions “good” or anything like that. I’m not very fond of her decisions. I’m more wondering if perhaps she (and we) have more information to learn in future gameplay, that might further inform the events surrounding the Sundering.

[PawPaw]

snip

My personal theories for the end of the game line up with yours in that I also think that our character will go back in time after regaining all of their shards and become the Azem we know. I don't give a rat's ass about Venat and her actions but I do agree that the clues are leading us in this direction. However, I am not fond of this theory as this would mean that not only did Azem have detailed knowledge of how, when and why the first Final Days would occur but that they did absolutely nothing to stop it or change a single thing for the sake of "PrEsErViNg ThE tImElInE". To hell with that, that would absolutely destroy my character in my eyes because if my character were Azem, they would never knowingly allow their loved ones to be sentenced to death and not lift a finger to save them. Conscribing your best friend to twelve thousand years of misery and allowing him to bloody his hands? No thanks.

But still, I do think that the story is rolling in this direction and I just hope that we are both wrong.

[Shookbeast]

My personal theories for the end of the game line up with yours in that I also think that our character will go back in time after regaining all of their shards and become the Azem we know. I don't give a rat's ass about Venat and her actions but I do agree that the clues are leading us in this direction. However, I am not fond of this theory as this would mean that not only did Azem have detailed knowledge of how, when and why the first Final Days would occur but that they did absolutely nothing to stop it or change a single thing for the sake of "PrEsErViNg ThE tImElInE". To hell with that, that would absolutely destroy my character in my eyes because if my character were Azem, they would never knowingly allow their loved ones to be sentenced to death and not lift a finger to save them. Conscribing your best friend to twelve thousand years of misery and allowing him to bloody his hands? No thanks.

But still, I do think that the story is rolling in this direction and I just hope that we are both wrong.

I would be bummed out by that too. My hope is that the writers have a plan to kinda undo/augment/repair the potential damage done. Maybe the reason why we travel back to become Azem is a neat story reason that’ll help resolve some of the Sundering issues - so that’s why as the WOL we’re okay with hopping around in time.

[Rulakir]

This theory would imply the WoL becoming whole would drastically change their physical appearance to be that of a 20 ft. tall Hyur or round-eared Elezen and that's not something that would ever happen in game.

I share the sentiments about not being involved in another BS time loop (I hate paradoxes) where we again fail to save the Ancients. The WoL becoming Azem would be a cruel reward and sadistic fate.

[KageTokage]

As much as I'd like for the Azem that's "us" to not also be part of this massive ball of time-wimey nonsense, the implication that they were actively guiding both Venat and Elidibus to Elpis to play their roles really is suggesting that's the case.

I could honestly see them pulling a stunt where we do end up having to become complete to save the Source and the shards again, but in the process our current soul is lost and somehow sent back in time to become Azem, while our present self is granted a new soul in order to continue existing as we are.

[PawPaw]

This theory would imply the WoL becoming whole would drastically change their physical appearance to be that of a 20 ft. tall Hyur or round-eared Elezen and that's not something that would ever happen in game.

Don't see why not. Considering the power the Ancients could casually wield, there's no reason for me to believe that a glamour couldn't be used to change their appearance however they wished if necessary. I can do a quick scribble and turn my 3' character into a 12' Hyur version of her that's the spitting image quite easily. That's the least of my concerns and easily dealt with. I'd also assume that this would be the actual end of the game, as in, no more MSQ; not halfway through 8.0 or something.

I could honestly see them pulling a stunt where we do end up having to become complete to save the Source and the shards again, but in the process our current soul is lost and somehow sent back in time to become Azem, while our present self is granted a new soul in order to continuing existing as we are.

That's interesting, actually. Do you think going back in time would wipe the rejoined soul of their memories so they wouldn't be culpable in doing nothing to stop the Final Days? Hmm...
There is still the issue of Azem seemingly knowing everything we do before we do it, and I don't buy into Future Sight being the answer because if the Ancients had such a powerful ability to see the future down to the exact latitude and longitude of how to land precisely on Themis' head, then the Final Days wouldn't have come as such a surprise.

[Shookbeast]

This theory would imply the WoL becoming whole would drastically change their physical appearance to be that of a 20 ft. tall Hyur or round-eared Elezen and that's not something that would ever happen in game.

I share the sentiments about not being involved in another BS time loop (I hate paradoxes) where we again fail to save the Ancients. The WoL becoming Azem would be a cruel reward and sadistic fate.

It’s possible our physical appearance as Azem (Cat, LaLa, Bunny, etc…) can be easily hand-waived by the writers having the Ancients think Azem’s appearance is part of our character’s particular peculiarities. Azem is a weirdo don’t forget.

The writers may be playing coy with Emet not completely recognizing us - as just a way to let us use a few Fantasias between now and whenever we go back in time.

And maybe the best our WOL can do with our new-found Ancient powers… is to just grow big. That’s it. No mind butterflies or fancy space-monster forms. All we can do is concentrate real hard - and gain a few feet. I can see other Ancients being confused, or outright making fun of us for our lack of skill. “It’s as if you’ve lived your whole life without so much an hour of training. How gauche.”

[Lyth]

We probably won't know definitively what the timeline is until the mysteries around Pandaemonium and Myths are resolved. In particular, I hope that they explain the circumstances around Azem's departure from the Convocation, as well as Elidibus' promise. I'll be amused if we get to see Elidibus interact directly with Azem, because we know he's a big fan and they've already drawn that parallel between him and G'raha back in Shadowbringers.

I think if we travelled back at a later time to Amaurot to become Azem, then it would have to be at the very end of all stories. Personally, if they ever do go into the pre-Convocation origins of Azem, I'd actually like it better if we were not from Amaurot at all, but rather one of those other Ancient societies yet to be discovered. It makes Azem more a 'citizen of the world' rather than belonging to any one nation, which fits with the travelling motif.

[Rulakir]

Don't see why not. Considering the power the Ancients could casually wield, there's no reason for me to believe that a glamour couldn't be used to change their appearance however they wished if necessary.

I can't even argue this given that aether and now dynamis are "magic" plot devices that can be used to do anything the writers want. All I can say is logically I would think with each rejoining we'd start to experience physical changes and in order to reach a state of wholeness by a theoretical end of the MSQ this would need to be depicted along the way.

I have a theory, based on what Yoshi-P said that unsundered reincarnations wouldn't be physically much different than the sundered, that the Ancients derived much of their power from Etheirys itself. So, as long as the star is sundered mankind won't revert back to Ancient size nor reclaim the same level of creation magics. I suppose in that framing, if the unsundered WoL went back in time then by virtue of Etheirys being unsundered their form would adjust. You'd just have to hand wave our travels to Elpis.

As for the rest, thanks, I hate it. However, I suspect this is less setting up a time loop (hopium) than it is retconning Azem to having worked with Venat behind the scenes. I don't think Yoshi-P counted on there being a substantial amount of players who wouldn't like her. Making her both the former Azem and mentor to ours seemed to be setting this up combined with him saying in the LL that they have an idea what Azem was doing during the Final Days. I don't know how/why Venat would know about Pandemonium to tell Azem, but bigger issues than that in EW didn't make sense either.

I would certainly have some words for anyone who thought writing our character to not save the Ancients twice sounded like a good idea.

[PawPaw]

As for the rest, thanks, I hate it. However, I suspect this is less setting up a time loop (hopium) than it is retconning Azem to having worked with Venat behind the scenes. I don't think Yoshi-P counted on there being a substantial amount of players who wouldn't like her. Making her both the former Azem and mentor to ours seemed to be setting this up combined with him saying in the LL that they have an idea what Azem was doing during the Final Days. I don't know how/why Venat would know about Pandemonium to tell Azem, but bigger issues than that in EW didn't make sense either.

I would certainly have some words for anyone who thought writing our character to not save the Ancients twice sounded like a good idea.

Yeah, I hear you. Unless they could find a way to do it incredibly cleverly (doubt) I would not be happy with this end either. For the bolded, there really is no way for Venat to be the coordinator of anything regarding our involvement in Pandemonium as she only knows what we knew and what we told her, and at the time we had no idea we would ever return to Elpis. And there is also the question of "when in time exactly is Pandemonium happening?". The fact still remains that Azem did know what would happen, and they knew in enough detail to accurately arrange for the "falling star" to live up to their name.

I've had my suspicions and my list of breadcrumbs since ShB but when Yoshida responded to the question "What was Azem doing during the Final Days?" with "whatever you would be doing is what they would be doing", well the suspicions just got stronger.