Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[tearagion]

It's ironic that this rework was supposed to solve the problem of multiple expansions of disparate systems stacked to a breaking point, and all it accomplished was mostly the same pile of disparate systems, except every single one was sanded down into something far, far, far more boring than before. It certainly is more exciting I suppose, but that excitement is all novelty and fades extremely quickly.

[Dyvid]

Well I've lost faith in SE in general.

First we have the CEO who's more concerned with fleecing money from us with cash grabs like NFT, overpriced resin statues, and pay to win games. The only thing this company has going for it right now it FFXIV bringing in the cash to help offset all the loses. Rumor report is Sony is about to just buy the troubled company.

Next the director is doing triple duty as a Division Exec and Producer on other projects. Not knocking the guy because it does good work and I'm sure FFXVI will be a huge hit. The problem is since he less hands on with FFXIV it needs a Co-Director who is worth spit. Maybe poach FFXI's Director since he designed FFXIV 2.0 battle system.

Which brings us to the Battle Team... Clearly we need some changes because 3 people plus a lead isn't working. I remember in 2.0 and 3.0, even when content was dried up I would still run dungeons and battle content not just for gear but because the jobs were just fun to play. It's hard to say that now and would rather just do crafting or not log in at all and play something else.

[unjourneyed]

I have some gripes about 6.x Summoner, so my opinion of the job is absolutely mixed. It's personally not terrible, but also not too satisfying to play at times with my main points of contention being more about Egi/Carbuncle now unintentionally becoming screen clutter and the feel of the job in content below level 86.

Summons not having much interaction for this expansion is heartbreaking. It's understood why the dependency on pets for damage/support is being slowly phased out due to pet queuing issues, such as dropping commands and unresponsiveness, as well the reason as to why pets can no longer return to auto-attacking as they did before since pets do not stay on the field for a significant amount of time to do anything of worth due to being constantly re-summoned and displaced by said re-summoning. On the other hand, I also would not dare say that there was any "job flavor" to the problems that plagued the pet systems either; it needed to be finally addressed. 6.x demi-summons no longer needing player input to auto-attack and 6.1 changes Searing Light did wonders (and I absolutely give thanks for these changes) for the job in solving this, but it is a certain feeling when your Egi simply has no use other than being catalyst for demi-summoning. I question if it is possible for Summoner to not even require pets in the future and plainly use demi-summons without them, similar to what it is like in PvP content. Would it be possible for pets to moved to a job-unique system like Bard's performance and have them as pure decoration (like minions) for those who would wish to keep their beloved pets around in fields or towns?

The job also has some weirdness in content where you do not have the trait Elemental Mastery with content below level 86. Although it is not as damaging (if any, with this iteration of Summoner) to do in level 90 content, I often get into below level 86 dungeons or trials and realize very late that I ended up messing up a rotation, as it is a massive change to the job after the prominent gap in the rotation through levels 70 to 85. It feels very empty when said gem-based Astral Flow are not available when, before 6.x, the Egi already had access to those (or something similar, in the case of Ifrit-Egi) around the same levels. Please consider moving the Elemental Mastery trait to level 76 instead to help with this. Perhaps there could a trait for Astral Flow to be added as a replacement that adds additional effects to the Elemental Mastery granted after obtaining level 86 to compliment the movement as well?

In the end, I really want to love 6.x Summoner as I did before in 5.x and I will continue being a main of the job, even if it gives me strange feelings. It cannot be helped, as I joined the game because I always adored any Summoner iteration, no matter how different it was in comparison to previous and future ones and loved seeing 14's Egi doing their own things alongside me. I do not speak for other Summoner mains, of course, but I do hope that some of their voices become more vocal about this and are acknowledged on how the job makes them feel if they still have their questions. Also, I apologize for any strange wording on my part.

[KaerisKlyne]

Nah, I've mained it since late HW and this is the best it's ever been. If I have a gripe, it's that I wish the trio of summons after Phoenix was a different set than the base three after Bahamut. Don't care that it's so few buttons now because they all feel different enough in execution between each summon.

[Bookkeepper]

I noticed it's changed how I interact with other players. In roulettes, I used to be excited when I saw a summoner! I would wave to them, pet the carbuncle, even favored them for commends at the end. But with summoner in its current state, I feel like I don't need to 'reward' people who play summoner. Like, if they're playing it, clearly they are happy with their light-up buttons? And I don't understand how that's fulfilling at all but sure. Play how you wanna play. Just don't expect me to care about your shiny new "job".

[Eorzean_username]

Overall, I feel like this iteration of Summoner is "progress". It's a step in the correct direction, and has finally given the Job a core, solidified design idea that aligns with the iconic depictions of Summoner in the broader FF franchise.

However, I also feel like the current design feels like I'm "Beta Testing" a Summoner concept. It's a good start, but to me, it doesn't really feel "finished". Especially compared to how crisp and depthy previous iterations of Summoner felt (despite being abominations from a QOL perspective).

For me, personally, these are my major concerns right now:


I don't like the feeling of "empty" summon GCDs.

I feel like Summon actions worked much better as OGCDs, since it's a separate entity manifesting onto the field. And in the current system, there's actually less need than ever before for having them on a GCD.

I really don't like the weird "dead zone" in my rotation, where my rotational rhythm suddenly grinds to a full stop, and I just sit there, awkwardly, waiting for my Demi or Gem-Primal-Thing to finish doing its JoJo intro scene.

I'd much rather be "actively" casting another Ruin 3 while my summon finishes its Windows 95 boot sequence, than just standing there shuffling my feet for 2.50 seconds.

The cycle feels too repetitive

For me, the Arcanum sequences become too familiar, too quickly. It feels like this design was really "meant" to have 6 different Arcanums. Doing Ifrit/Titan/Garuda every 60s makes me slowly go crazy, because it's just not varied enough.

Something is wrong when I get back to a point in my rotation, and find myself thinking, "Ugh, I'm already here again? I feel like I just did Ifrit..."

In my opinion, the problem isn't the current design of Ifrit/Titan/Garuda. They're "fine". Not super-exciting, but different enough from each other, and... yeah... I think the best word is, "fine".

Instead, they just come up again too soon.

But for me, I also feel like this point would primarily be resolved by addressing the next point, so...

Where are Shiva, Ramuh, and Leviathan??

"But Shiva is—" Sister please, we've been carting around Louisoix like a designer handbag for 3 years. And lorewise, we all have to meet her as a mandatory part of MSQ. And for... reasons... we're actually probably extra-saturated with her "aetherial residue", in particular.

...So anyway, SE, look. I just want to be an FF Summoner, okay?

And FF franchise Summoners... summon things. They summon lots of things. They spend the course of their given game collecting things to summon, so that they can summon even more things.

A Summoner that can only summon Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda feels like a Summoner that is still in the first 10 hours of an FF game's storyline. You know, the part where you don't even have an airship yet, and you're still chasing the wrong villain.

And current FFXIV Carbuncle doesn't count, because it doesn't really... do anything, so it doesn't feel like a real summon. (Sorry Carbuncle, nothing personal.)

Now, we do have Bahamut and Phoenix — good! Two major "late-game" Summons are already here. That is good!

But where are the other FF Summoner staples?

• Shiva is classic FF Summoner.
• Ramuh is classic FF Summoner.
• Leviathan is classic FF Summoner.

And they don't even need special "egi models" now... you can just Copy+Paste their actual encounter models.

Come onnnnnnn SE, just do it... just fill out the rest of the classic FF Summon menu.

Where are other late-game Summons?

Actually, while you're at it, consider filling out other classic FF "late-game" Summons.

• Demi-Odin
• Demi-Warring Triad (probably change the part where it damages your own party, though... people might not like that)
• Demi-Alexander

"But what if I somehow decide to never do those raids/trials, yet also somehow paradoxically care about the lore of why I'm able to Summon them?"

Okay first of all, what.

And second of all, just put on your Banri Oda Interview Hat for a second, and think of whatever creative, pretzel-shaped explanation that you need.

Odin:

Have you ever been in Black Shroud during Tension weather? You can't remember for sure? Exactly. Let's just say you were. It's probably true. And you were huffing Odin fumes that whole time. Now, the power is within you!

Warring Triad:

Well you know, when you fought LahaGeyorm and Thordan, you were standing on top of the Warring Triad and Thordan was slurping up their aether and so he got some Warring Triad in your Warrior of Light.

Alexander:

Well you had to travel in Dravanian Hinterlands as part of MSQ, even after the Illuminati summoned Alexander, and so therefore, you inhaled enough Alexander vapors.

Reconsider the design of Energy Drain / Fester / Aetherflow

With the removal of SMN dots, this set of actions feel really odd and relict. They don't really fit the FFXIV Summoner theming any more. In retrospect, this probably stems from the 2.0 decision to have Arcanist upgrade into a totally-unrelated lore concept, but, uh, that ship sailed a wee while ago, so let's just try not to think about it.

I guess it's fine if you want Summoner to have the stock, tacked-on Gauge / OGCD stacks that seems requisite in FFXIV design these days, but just... like... please maybe change the flavor.

For example, "Fester" could instead be "Sparkling Sparkle Power", and change into a different OGCD that is themed on which Summon is currently active.

Spice up Demi windows again

I think that Demi windows feel kind of underwhelming now, from a play perspective. There's just not much going on.

To be clear, I think that Demi windows were, uh... ridiculous in Shadowbringers, but I think that was due to poor design issues like "Surprise, you didn't triple-weave at exactly midnight on the Vernal Equinox, so you lost a Phoenix attack, LOL"... and not the inherent concept of a busy summon window.

I think that this could easily be spiced up a bit.

For example, imagine if every Astral Flare generated a stack of Aetherflow, which could be spent on... uh, I don't know, "Flare Breath", a massive frontal cone OGCD.

There, now you have more of an active rhythm going on during Demi windows.

[Ralt21]

Someone mentions elemental mastery being at lvl 76, maybe. One of the things smn absolutely needs is a downgraded version of elemental mastery at the end of ARR or HW. As you lvl summoner you will have the core of the rotation unlocked at lvl 45? No even earlier with the carbuncles.
Doing the same rotation all the way up to lvl 76/86 is like playing WHM.
Just have elemental mastery 1 at lvl 50/56 and elemental mastery 2 at lvl 76/86.
After that their need to be more built on top of the fundation the dev have created.
Somebody else mentions the other primals. Well i hope they feel more different than what we have. I already dont like how simuliar garuda/titan and DWT feel as i am lvl 66.

[Sequora]

Someone mentions elemental mastery being at lvl 76, maybe. One of the things smn absolutely needs is a downgraded version of elemental mastery at the end of ARR or HW. As you lvl summoner you will have the core of the rotation unlocked at lvl 45? No even earlier with the carbuncles.
Doing the same rotation all the way up to lvl 76/86 is like playing WHM.
Just have elemental mastery 1 at lvl 50/56 and elemental mastery 2 at lvl 76/86.
After that their need to be more built on top of the fundation the dev have created.
Somebody else mentions the other primals. Well i hope they feel more different than what we have. I already dont like how simuliar garuda/titan and DWT feel as i am lvl 66.

If they add something at a lower level, I think something needs to be added in place of it from 80-90.

That being said I would be more than ok adding complexity to SMN.

[Magikazam]

The class just feels hollow and bad to play. I can decide which color of Crayola I want to eat first yet they all do the same thing. Why the hell summons ain't pets anymore while they fixed SCh Fairy AI. Why can't we summon other primal yet? Why am I spamming 1 buttons during mroe than half my rotations? Seriously you can macro the whole rotation on a single button due to how simple it is.

[Gallus]

Meanwhile, I'm enjoying it. Simple, but smooth and clean. I've seen every SMN iteration before this one and I could never stomach it (and I love the SMN thematically).

Unresponsive pets (contagion taking 3 seconds to cast in ARR), dying pets to random stuff (with the whole sustain drama with some people wanting it back), fester registering too early after dot appliance resulting in terrible damage, 1 minute atherflow prepulls, Ifrit-egi wandering around aimlessly against spread targets, aetherflow spells landing on immune targets not giving any dreadwyrm attunement which pretty much destroyed your entire rotation, SMNs dying being extremely crippling to recover, Egi Assaults going from OGCD to GCD because people were getting carpal tunnel after pressing 544 buttons every rotation cycle. Demis ghosting AAs. Egi Assaults ghosting too. And that's just scratching the surface because the list is endless.

I don't miss any of the above.

To summarise, I'm happy with the current SMN, yes, it is simple, but it flows well, it works, it has good DPS and everything about it looks clean, smooth and polished. The other iterations almost looked like the rotation was in a Beta state with a zillion bugs and issues.

Going by FFlogs, SMN right now has the second most uploaded amount of parses in the current savage iteration, only behind RPR which is pretty much EW's new flavour, so I don't know if people are as unhappy with the SMN as the regulars in this thread are presenting it.